NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

As a recent peaker, the thing that blows my mind is that a group that makes up such a small percentage of the population could have effected such wider ranging (and damaging IMO) societal changes. Last census puts it at 0.5% of general pop? But of course children would not have been in the census...
so the pieces are starting to come together...

I had a v sobering chat with my friend's 11 yo on the subject last week. There are many trans children in her school - she said she was very confused as to why there were so many trans kids when she had never met one single adult trans person.

It’s time for change, there does need to be some clarity for the likes of BU who weasel their way round things to suit themselves.

So does this mean that DU carries on with his career while SP has to remain at home? Or is the good Doctor so traumatised that he’s allowed ‘sick’ leave?

I can’t believe this is going to be dragged on, all because of a man and his ‘hurty feels! 😡

Matron - are you allowing biological men into female bays?

It's a good thing that the Fife hospital (apparently) hasn't got an explicit policy like this. If they had, then they'd just point to it and say, "Well, there it is in writing. You can self-select your gender, so it's Dr Upton's choice which changing room to use." And they might add "No, there's no provision for anyone who's uncomfortable with that. Of course we try to be kind to everybody..."

I have seen that happen, back in my pre Matron days.

Due to my interjection at the policy passing meeting (not its real name) our policy now states that patients with a gender identity different from their ‘sex assigned at birth’ should be accomadated in a side room ‘where ever possible’.

Maybe you can show your hospital this? The area may be listed?
https://www.womensrights.network/hospital-report

Again, this seems to be a fairly new belief.

First it was "brain sex".

Then it was "hormonal sex" which I think started doing the rounds a couple of years ago.

Now they're saying their "tiddy skittles" 🤢 (sorry) are literally, in the normal usage of that word, transforming their whole biological makeup.

And there's always handwaving about "science" and what we now know, but I genuinely think this is all activists bumping gums on various forums that then finds its way uncritically into tribunal hearings and mainstream media.

We are in Bizarro World.

This whole situation and the ‘captured’ NHS, makes me quite worried about any future care I might need, especially if I needed to stay over on a ward, one that should be single sex!

Does this mean that any Tom, Dick or Pete could don a pink headband, decide they’re female for their NHS stay and be assigned a bed in a female only ward?

If so, how can we make this fuckery stop?!

I know... the future looks so scary for all women and girls if this is allowed to happen...

Then the sex discrimination case would be a slam dunk regardless of the policy as the policy isn't legally compliant

Yes.

In a word.

If he is back at work next week maybe nurses at Fife should make a stand and all change in the male changing room

But that's just not comparable to the dangers a men pose by entering female sex only spaces.

This is already happening in NHS wards - also in NHS group therapy sessions which are supposed to be single sex provisions.

Makes me want to weep.

I think I’d feel safer in a corridor then.

No but it would disabuse him of the idea that everyone other than Sandy believes he's a woman.

But it would be carrying out the behaviour that he has displayed which is the issue.

There's much better ways for people to tell him he's male, however, right now people are probably wisely advised not to get caught in the legal shit storm that has occurred.

Hopefully the conclusion of this process will correct his beliefs.

A time when we’re at our most vulnerable and Pete walks in. Absolutely fanfuckingtastic!

Or confirm them.

If you search "your local nhs trust trans policy" you may well get it written in black and white.

I know our local trust has a trans policy that states they must be treated according to self id basically.

Firstly thanks to everyone that has posted these threads and provided commentary.
I started reading a few days ago and I'm up to thread #10 and just realised we're on 17 now. I wanted to read all before watching the tribunal live, but realised I'm never going to catch up so I've skipped to the current thread.
I've just been reading Upton spouting nonsense about biological sex being irrelevant and that it doesn't take a male and female to reproduce?? The guy seems insane but this is what gave me the chills : [just because a woman has trauma doesn't justify her being unpleasant to me] (paraphrasing)- he doesn't give a shit! I'm speechless and trying to process it all.

I still have 7 threads to read. Is the tribunal still going on? I have access to view but did I read it's now been adjourned?

Then we get weep weep we must make getting a gender woo certificate easier because we don't have self ID. Sadly we do Stonewall ushered it in throttle capture of institutions like the NHS.

I wonder whether the national media picking up on the "Trump supporter" angle will result in the coverage becoming international.