NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

A comment was made on the previous thread about Dr Upton still being capable medically even if his belief system meant he genuinely believed that sex is not binary etc.

To paraphrase Sal Grover -

If you will lie about this, you will lie about anything. If you will lie about something so obvious, I don't trust you

We resume.

JR - we left things on 4 January with the letter, skip forward to 8 Jan, KS email to IB at 15:18, 3rd para down says that KS has had a chat with MC and ED.

ED - the only discussion I had with IB was about the TW using the female CR, and the chat I had with MC was that she had been given the same advice, that DU could use female CR.

JR - now another email; what does this relate to, is she referring to you

ED - I don't think it's me, I had only that one convo with IB is August and no other convo

JR - lovely, now moving on to 12 Jan

I'm assuming the exceptions apply in Scotland?

They could so easily have just said here is another room Upton, it's a proportional means to a legitimate end. Off you go.

And no amount of him bellyaching about it's only one complaint, it's not fair, I'm going to cry, but she supports Trump, would've made the slightest bit of difference.

I missed the end of the last thread, so just wanted to thank everyone who gave me really good advice.

I first saw him in the pandemic so he has been there since 2020. Certainly enough time for all women registered at the surgery to have been due a smear test.

I will definitely take it further and reach out to the organisations that were recommended.

Is bringing up Trump not demonstrating that there was discrimination on the grounds of political beliefs here too?

They didn't want to ask the man in case he didn't like it

JR - KS email to DU on 12 Jan, to DU, you were CC'd. Would you read that to yourself and what you make of that

ED - I was the designated lead for the IX and I wanted DU to put into writing what the complaint was

JR - who decided you were the lead

ED - Gillian Malone, that was

This is such an interesting (and depressing) observation. Sandie's response to being upset was to be angry - rightly so. Not an acceptable response for women generally, we know that angry middle aged women are scorned upon.

Dr Arsehole's response to being upset is to be a blubbering wreck, thus demonstrating how fragile he is. It is also how he presumable thinks women should respond, as we are so weak etc.

I take it from TT that they asked SP if she was prepared to proceed without representation. What was the rush and what position was SP in?

Just bringing Datun's post over from the last thread, because it's such great question, and I hope NC manages to ask it!
(sorry can't quote from previous threads)

Datun · Today 10:52

"Do you think women's hotel choice should determine whether or not their consent is valid?"

don't know about you but I know I personally like my nurses to burst into song. anything less than the sound of music and I feel they just can’t do the job properly!

Thank you for the new thread and as always for the commentary. You're amazing wims.

But if he believes that hormone use changes the relevant reference ranges from one sex to another then surely that's going to compromise patient safety and care?

Oh you see women must never been stern. Maybe SP should have taken Womanly advice from DU and she would never have gotten herself in this sorry situation 🙄

later changed because clearly I was going to become part of the IX.

JR - why clearly part of the IX

ED - because SP had spoken with myself, I had taken advice about the CRs.

JR - when was that changed

ED - I think in February, probably near the end of Feb

JR - who was new lead

To the point about Lucy Letby's dad going in to see her managers - what a pity that Sandie's dad was probably quite seriously ill by then with the thing that would kill him. Obviously if he had been able to go in and talk to Sandie's managers, it would all have been fine.

Thanks for the reminder.

Hopefully Faye will reach her target nearer to the time.

Wait, what? I thought fifes case was that whatever ED was doing it wasn’t an investigation?

ED - it was Angela Glancey

JR - who decided,

ED - HR and senior management, head of nursing, Gilian Malone (GM) ,

JR - who made you original IX lead

ED - GM, in that meeting in early Jan

JR - how were you told

ED - verbally by GM and Angie Hammond from HR.

You'd think so.

Looks like it, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the case and yet they keep bringing it up.

Yep

trump fan = bully

I believe that's what they're aiming for, anyway.

Is ED referring to the initial investigation that wasn't an investigation here??

So they had been told they only had one side and had to tread with caution (my interpretation). Has Sandie given her side by this time? I may have missed that - don’t think there has been a formal interview yet although she may have given a brief account on telephone?

I suspect that DU lost his shit because he came across Sandie on the 28th and his reaction to that is what has led to suspension on 3rd. He was simply not prepared to allow a proper process to take place because she had disrespected him by referring to him as a man. There is really no more to this story. Sandie called him a man so now she has to pay for it big style. He is clearly manipulating hospital management but they should not allow that and it’s no excuse for them not following correct processes.