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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 10:57

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
ickky · 13/02/2025 15:58

Well It hasn't gone well for NHS Fife today has it.

ThatDaringMintCritic · 13/02/2025 15:59

JR suddenly went quiet this pm

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 15:59

ED - i think it was clear early on that I would be leading IX.

Um, the investigation that wasn't? JR?

OP posts:
wantmorenow · 13/02/2025 16:01

Thank you @nauticant and @ickky

JasmineAllen · 13/02/2025 16:01

JustBitetheKnotsOff · 13/02/2025 15:57

Oh I do like the sense of timing:
ED - i think it was clear early on that I would be leading IX.
NC - looking at the time, is it time to finish?

I agree. ED has just acknowledged she was leading the investigation that we'd been told a few days ago didn't happen.

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 16:01

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 13/02/2025 11:42

Is bringing up Trump not demonstrating that there was discrimination on the grounds of political beliefs here too?

Effectively yes.

Its not ok. You can't do that. You can disagree, but you can't affect their work. Because thats prejudice.

I genuinely can't work out why the defence are using this as an argument they think is valid! They don't understand the law if they are.

RE All the comments about a union rep: HOW exactly would a union rep helped Sandie? They all support this nonsense. It'd just have been someone else in the room to bully Sandie. Sandie will have been well aware of that.

Ditto the referal to occupational health. I would regard that as pretty much being sent for re-education in the face of not being given equal hearing as to what happened with the other party being taken at face value rather than potentially having their own vexatious agenda. I mean, at school if two kids have an agreement, a teacher will rarely take sides without evidence or an adult witnessing the situation - and they will go to trying to understand communication issues BEFORE taking further action. Yet the NHS aren't even at the level of understanding how kids lie in the playground to get their own way and perhaps adults might do the same...

Indeed someone else points out on this thread:
Looking at the NHS suspension policy, it's recommended to find alternatives to suspension and for suspension to not exceed 4 weeks unless in exceptional circumstances. So bringing SP back to work on opposite shifts to DU is a sensible plan that should almost certainly have happened sooner.

Instead NHS Fife decided to act in a way that looking increasingly like School Playground Bullying for not being in the cool gang. It just looks like they wanted to suck up to the chief bully and were too scared to challenge.

As for Stern Demeanour. The 2025 equivalent of 'Smile Love'?

rebmacesrevda · 13/02/2025 16:01

Chariothorses · 13/02/2025 15:50

The extent of the lies and bias/ discriminatory attitudes of all the NHS staff involved - except Sandie- is mind boggling. How can an entire team of NHS staff be so lacking in personal integrity?

I think, in this situation, acting with integrity would require a degree of courage, which they all seemed to lack. I don't defend them, but in my view this illustrates the power of a narcissist in controlling the people around them.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 13/02/2025 16:01

Is this the first investigation that they denied happened they are taking about?

SqueakyDinosaur · 13/02/2025 16:01

I think it's interesting that NC refers to DU as "she" in her exchanges with ED, whereas she was much clearer about his sex in his own XX. I wonder what would happen if she switched to "he" - I guess JR would be on her feet protesting that ED sees DU as a woman?

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 16:02

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 15:54

There's every chance you remain iron deficient without (sexist) anaemia. Have you had your Ferritin checked?

The management of women's anaemia is another NHS failure

And the NHS reference ranges for Ferritin are misleading too.

They say 30- is normal but my haematologist says it needs to be over 100 for good quality hair

There's lots on here about ferritin, have a key word search.

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2025 16:02

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 15:59

ED - i think it was clear early on that I would be leading IX.

Um, the investigation that wasn't? JR?

Postbox leads non-investigation!

NebulousDogwhistle · 13/02/2025 16:02

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 13/02/2025 16:01

Is this the first investigation that they denied happened they are taking about?

The nonvestigation, as it were.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 13/02/2025 16:02

Crikey, the cross exam of KS is gonna be brutal 😬

SqueakyDinosaur · 13/02/2025 16:02

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 13/02/2025 16:01

Is this the first investigation that they denied happened they are taking about?

Yes, this is the totally non-existent first investigation that all these emails and conversations are about.

Rightsraptor · 13/02/2025 16:03

How do I access my bookmarked posts? I can't see how to do it.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 13/02/2025 16:03

I hope the judge/panel draw many inferences from the poor disclosure by the respondents.

rebmacesrevda · 13/02/2025 16:03

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 13/02/2025 16:02

Crikey, the cross exam of KS is gonna be brutal 😬

I predicted she'll go sick, and someone else said she'll emigrate. I now think emigration is likely!

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 16:03

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 15:54

There's every chance you remain iron deficient without (sexist) anaemia. Have you had your Ferritin checked?

The management of women's anaemia is another NHS failure

I've been iron deficient all my adult life but only found out relatively recently when a GP happened to go over my previous ferritin levels to try to figure out ongoing symptoms. I'd been told my ferritin was normal when it was at deficient levels because the female reference range includes very low levels of ferritin as normal, due to basing the range on population average which includes iron deficient women of reproductive age. I now ask for the numerical value of my ferritin result each time. I also do not become anaemia despite very low ferritin levels but still get very symptomatic. Fortunately my GP agreed to prescribe me long term iron despite the absence of anaemia. It is worth going back and advocating for yourself. More GPs seem to be recognising the issue.

SqueakyDinosaur · 13/02/2025 16:04

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 13/02/2025 16:02

Crikey, the cross exam of KS is gonna be brutal 😬

Yes. Buy popcorn.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 13/02/2025 16:04

Rightsraptor · 13/02/2025 16:03

How do I access my bookmarked posts? I can't see how to do it.

Bookmark here is literally an placemarker on a thread, and each time you bookmark it wipes out the previous one.

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2025 16:04

https://www.acas.org.uk/religion-or-belief-discrimination

'Employment tribunals have previously found the following not to be protected by law:

  • loyalty to a country
  • supporting a sports team
  • membership of a political party
Someone's political beliefs could still be protected if they meet the definition of philosophical belief.'

Political views is an interesting one.

What the law says - Religion or belief discrimination - Acas

What religion or belief discrimination is, what you can do if you experience it at work, and what employers should do.

https://www.acas.org.uk/religion-or-belief-discrimination

StormyPotatoes · 13/02/2025 16:05

So if this is the non-existent investigation, when did the second actual investigation take place?

DrMaxwell · 13/02/2025 16:05

Did I just read that a consultant determined what action should be taken without consulting HR? Prejudged the entire investigation?

Yes KS definitely needs to be a respondent if true.

anyolddinosaur · 13/02/2025 16:05

I see someone has directed Sarah Holman here - I dont know Sarah but thanks on her behalf.

@nauticant and @ickky there are no bouquets big enough to say thanks.❤FlowersFlowersFlowersFlowers

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