NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

Does ED imply that it was unsafe to be around SP when she stated "the decision for everyones safety"?

I'd be fucking angry at that point if I was Sandie. And they seem to want to use it against her 😬

Normally a suspension would only occur if the employee couldn't remain in post while an investigation is ongoing.

So the allegation would have to be something that amounts to gross misconduct.

I'm not clear if she was told that or not in this meeting. It should be clear in the suspension letter. Otherwise arguably the suspension itself is unlawful.

JR - now about IX interview; 'she's a gentle caring person' anything else you'd like to tell the tribunal at this point about your thought process
ED - Beth had been working in the dept, we knew Beth, I didn't communicate to anyone on the staff, I didn't think
hat there was any need to do any further communication about sexual orientation or identity. The staff had accepted Beth as a woman, no need to say anything further
JR - and why was that
ED - I didn't think there was any need and I didn't want Beth to feel unwelcome in the department

Dammit, my blood pressure had just started to come down from yesterday!!

without walking through the dept, she said I have nothing to hide, she was angry and upset.

JR - suspension letter; is this the letter you sent

ED (reading) yes, it was,

JR - you describe events of 3rd Jan, including convo you had with J Hurks, email from JH to staff....missed

Trump Derangement Syndrome. It's the current years Godwin's Law. If in doubt say "literally Hitl....".

Sex-based privacy and dignity be damned. A hotel stay has kiboshed those rights.

At this point it feels like a parody.

Policy to have union rep though

poor Sandie

God I can just imagine how Sandie felt in that room, so many of us have been in situations where we are being treated badly and steam rollered into decisions that are not in our best interests

AS is Angie Shepherd - ED's service manager

This is looking messy for NHS Fife already - ED has a clear recollection of checking policy documents re changing room use; but her evidence about the suspension/IX process is very muddled - it should surely be a relatively simple matter to check similar policy docs and follow that process too?

SP shows her upset in unacceptable ways for a woman....she's gets " tense" and angry, rather than blubbering and having to be accompanied to her car like DU

ED - code says we can't put our beliefs on other people

Can they not see that allowing males to use female CR is putting their beliefs on other people? It’s mind boggling how stupid people are being.

Re Kate Searle's email:

ED - when i read that it was KS making us aware of having a chat with DU and telling us about next steps, and not have both Beth and Sandie on the same shift.

Yes, that seems . . . intemperate and inappropriate!!

Fucking hell, you've just suspended a woman for not wanting to strip off in front of a man, she she crying and shaking and in shock, and you tell her she can leave now

we're all reading this third hand, about someone else,through a screen, and we're fucking in shock.

this disgusting ideology has to go

JR - I've finished that topic, this might be a good time for a break.

J - shall we have a break, gives standard instruction to witness.

Court rises.

End of morning session part one.

So hang on, has ED just admitted under oath, that they suspended SP with nothing more than a few uncorroborated claims from DU about hurt feelings and possibly leaving a patient unattended in resus?
I'm no HR expert would I would think that's highly irregular.

WTH Such a callous and heartless way to treat any member of staff!

Is that Fife policy?

It's not a general legal requirement.

And also, consciously aware of the importance of protecting Upton's feelings right from the off.

'Didn't want her to feel unwelcome'

Interesting, Upton's fundraiser comes up in Google's news when searching for the name, but Sandie's doesn't.

@TriesNotToBeCynical I agree he's lying. On Monday I thought he was delusional, and that he believed what he was saying. Now I think he's lying and he knows it. He's narcissistic and he's playing a game, where the goal is to control others (women) by forcing them to collude in his fantasy. He's doing well so far! He's got a team of supporters, an entire NHS organisation, and potentially the courts on his side. Sandie Peggie is the one person who refused to play ball, so she must be punished.

1st half of morning TT Tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1889966588264435947.html

So no guidance for staff if a female patient requested a same sex HCP?

They keep talking about "safety" - the word has an entirely different meaning these days. Physical safety is irrelevant , it's all about the feelz.

JR wants to show that being angry is not as valid a response as being tearful and weepy. It shows that SP doesn't feel victimised.