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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread 2: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

1000 replies

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 22/04/2024 23:22

At fewer than 20 posts left, time for part two.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5057460-a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet

Site Stuff thread that tipped off MNHQ: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet | Mumsnet

^By Aston Institute for Forensic Linguistics^ ^It has been suggested that the forum-style parenting website Mumsnet is a hub for ‘gender-critical’...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5057460-a-corpus-assisted-discourse-analysis-of-linguistic-transphobia-on-mumsnet

OP posts:
Thread gallery
111
Justnot · 26/04/2024 12:11

Just an anecdote re: women’s language. My daughter’s dad’s Nan, mum and sister all spoke pig Latin to each other but not to him. He didn’t know it was pig Latin, just thought it was some secret language only women knew………

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 26/04/2024 12:19

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 26/04/2024 11:26

My follow-up to the above post is as I posted elsewhere. The 2nd paragraph is in line with previous FWR discussions that at some point the NBs and parts of the trans umbrella that celebrate binaries will have a major schism.

The 3rd paragraph of the transmisia item is an updated version of the final paragraph here that's been linked on FWR several times (sorry, can't find the links) about 'gatekeeping standards'.

This too, from the Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group, originally published in 1972:

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us .

archive.org/details/cometogetheryear00walt/page/8/mode/2up

Honestly - men!

With hindsight it appears that the successful strategy is to develop your own consciousness while making everyone else feel so sorry for you that they don't dare question why you are muscling in to women's spaces and setting the standards by which women are accepted or rejected into our own spaces.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 26/04/2024 12:24

NonVerbalHateCrime · 26/04/2024 10:48

New merch coming on line all the time, already including sensible t-shirts and steampunk tote bags.

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/

Not wishing to sound paranoid, but how secure is this given names and addresses will be necessary to get an order delivered?

Villagetoraiseachild · 26/04/2024 12:28

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 26/04/2024 12:24

Not wishing to sound paranoid, but how secure is this given names and addresses will be necessary to get an order delivered?

Good point tho. I remember Posie having problems with printers who would pull out and stop contracts. It helps if the provider is gc aligned.

Villagetoraiseachild · 26/04/2024 12:29

As well as for protection of personal details, to be very safety conscious.

DrSoupDragonsFriend · 26/04/2024 12:31

I'm holding out as well! I really like the gerbil graphic... and the rust long sleeved t-shirt... and the tote bag...

I think the "I have no idea how this happened but here we are" quote (which made me laugh) at the end of the web page would also look great on a tote, or a mug (in case you have nothing else to do 😀).

Has a decision been made about any surplus money is to go yet? I'd be another voting for Sex Matters.

Well done for getting all this set up btw.

RainWithSunnySpells · 26/04/2024 12:32

Proceeds to Sex Matters sounds great. :)

Villagetoraiseachild · 26/04/2024 12:34

Whilst not wishing to rain on anyone's tshirt, they are Fabulous!

RainWithSunnySpells · 26/04/2024 12:35

NonVerbalHateCrime · 26/04/2024 11:28

Unfortunately, work means that I cannot sit here and do this all day, however much I would like to. Just about to add text tote bags.

If anyone wants a) a steampunk t-shirt or b) has a request just say. Am hoping to get teal Grimut Gerbils up over the weekend.

That Steampunk cat would be fab on everything... but I'm sure that a T-shirt would be popular.

NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 26/04/2024 12:48

NotLarkLane · 26/04/2024 11:25

There are those who are not genuine who sign up to post transphobic stuff for the screen shots.
While they are taken down if reported on MN, I've seen the trophy screen shots appear elsewhere as a gotcha proof of MN transphobia,

All of which EdenP would have discovered if EP had ever considered talking to FWR. Or even talking to Sarah Pedersen about how she did her MN research and publications. Or the previous Aston (?) PhD researcher (mentioned on this thread or elsewhere) who had carefully engaged with MN and thanked posters in the acknowledgements.

IcakethereforeIam · 26/04/2024 12:51

There was that incident when LOJ was a victim of a homophobic hate crime, the thread was full of posters condemning the attackers. There was one post, that LOJ screenshot and tweeted, that was vile from a username with no previous posting history.

AlisonDonut · 26/04/2024 12:56

We have no evidence of course that should the analysis not be going your way, you could easily join and post all sorts yourself should you be minded to.

Winnading · 26/04/2024 12:57

Boiledbeetle · 26/04/2024 11:09

Love the bag! That will be going in my basket!

I cant find this. I want it now. I can see tote bags with words on, colour natural sold out, leaving white, which wont work for me. But I want the steampunk cat/gerbil one. The one in this picture.
I keep having to go to work and am missing out on allllllll the good stuff.

Side note, I've just been reading the green party/Scot gov binfire revolt thread, am glad to see the beginning of the end there.

popebishop · 26/04/2024 13:00

AlisonDonut · 26/04/2024 12:56

We have no evidence of course that should the analysis not be going your way, you could easily join and post all sorts yourself should you be minded to.

Yeah, I made that point earlier, and it should be made extremely clear in any research how this will be accounted for, as well as other things such as following Talk guidelines on troll hunting (e.g. many may not comment on a terrible post because the best advice is to ignore trolls, but also cannot say "we think that post isn't genuine".

Boiledbeetle · 26/04/2024 13:00

Winnading · 26/04/2024 12:57

I cant find this. I want it now. I can see tote bags with words on, colour natural sold out, leaving white, which wont work for me. But I want the steampunk cat/gerbil one. The one in this picture.
I keep having to go to work and am missing out on allllllll the good stuff.

Side note, I've just been reading the green party/Scot gov binfire revolt thread, am glad to see the beginning of the end there.

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/product/steampunk-black-tote/

Steampunk black tote

Make a statement and stand out for all the right reasons with this epic design on our tote bag. (AI wrote that bit, just like it designed the bag)....

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/product/steampunk-black-tote

Boiledbeetle · 26/04/2024 13:07

popebishop · 26/04/2024 13:00

Yeah, I made that point earlier, and it should be made extremely clear in any research how this will be accounted for, as well as other things such as following Talk guidelines on troll hunting (e.g. many may not comment on a terrible post because the best advice is to ignore trolls, but also cannot say "we think that post isn't genuine".

They may assume as well that all deletions, especially in FWR are for transphobic content, when in one thread the majority of the deletions were because the thread OP reported all cake related posts to mnhq and got them all deleted as she'd wanted a serious thread (or something like that). A very good cherry cake recipe from a poster was deleted amongst other things! That went down well!

They're are so many variables to things that you run a real risk of creating a garbage in garbage out situation.

Winnading · 26/04/2024 13:09

It's in my basket and I might be sqeeeeeing in delight, now I'm waiting on a matching or similar tshirt and then I'll buy.

Btw £10 for a tote bag ain't bad. I've paid more.

DeanElderberry · 26/04/2024 13:14

I now suspect that the objection to cake was actually because an AI trainer found cake talk confused their tech. Presumably the tech is now more sophisticated.

I find that interference with normal female patterns of communication really offensive.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 26/04/2024 13:42

@Boiledbeetle 'They're are so many variables to things that you run a real risk of creating a garbage in garbage out situation.'

I should think it's pretty much guaranteed! If someone doesn't understand how MN works, they don't stand a chance - and they won't even know that their results are garbage.

MN is more of a living organism, so maybe it should only be studied by zoologists. Linguists? Nah.😜

NonVerbalHateCrime · 26/04/2024 14:03

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 26/04/2024 12:24

Not wishing to sound paranoid, but how secure is this given names and addresses will be necessary to get an order delivered?

I don't get any of the email addresses at all - the whole system comes through Teemill who just fulfill whatever I set up, but they take the order and email details. I used to see a first name but now just have an order number. And this is one store among hundreds.

I also don't think anyone is - without coming on here - going to even clock that this is TerfMerch (TM).

And even if they did, they'd have to infiltrate Teemill and sort through hundreds of thousands of orders to find the people. And it would be a data breach of the order that started this whole thing. So I think, relatively, this is OK.

DrBlackbird · 26/04/2024 14:29

we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us .

Never a good starting place when one’s identity rests wholly on other people recognising and agreeing with it. Identity needs to come from a strong inner sense of who you are. And don’t they understand that even with the many many successful institutional captures, they’ll never achieve what they want, which is to actually change sex.

Boiledbeetle · 26/04/2024 14:46

DrSoupDragonsFriend · 26/04/2024 12:31

I'm holding out as well! I really like the gerbil graphic... and the rust long sleeved t-shirt... and the tote bag...

I think the "I have no idea how this happened but here we are" quote (which made me laugh) at the end of the web page would also look great on a tote, or a mug (in case you have nothing else to do 😀).

Has a decision been made about any surplus money is to go yet? I'd be another voting for Sex Matters.

Well done for getting all this set up btw.

My vote goes to sex matters especially as they are newly a charity! But more important is that this has all come about because some person has decided that our words and beliefs are transphobic when all we are trying to say is that you can live how you want, but sometimes SEX MATTERS! And as our beliefs, thanks to Maya from Sex Matters, are legally worthy of respect in a democratic society it seems fitting.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 26/04/2024 14:53

Is there normally a message when you click 'Thanks'? I just got one saying 'This thanks will appear from [my username]'. Have I just never noticed this before?

DrSpartacular · 26/04/2024 15:01

ifIwerenotanandroid · 26/04/2024 14:53

Is there normally a message when you click 'Thanks'? I just got one saying 'This thanks will appear from [my username]'. Have I just never noticed this before?

Just tested and no message. Are you signed in with the name you've used on the thread where you're thanking?

ifIwerenotanandroid · 26/04/2024 15:04

yes

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