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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's hour 2nd April 2024 JKR's 'hate' thread

556 replies

WarriorN · 02/04/2024 10:08

First item is the Hate bill and JK's tweets - they did invite her on but haven't heard back yet

For women Scotland will be on too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:35

You might not like it, you might want to end it, but trans women have to legal right to be in women's toilets..

There is no statistical evidence whatsoever that this has any impact on women.

But I am all ears. How would you police chromosome-based toilets? If you think men pretending to be women is an issue) how would you prevent men pretending to be trans men using the facilities? How would you stop GNC women from being targetted by gender critical activists?

Let's here a coherent policy which addresses gender critical peoples' "legitimate concerns."

Choochuw · 03/04/2024 12:37

maltravers · 03/04/2024 12:22

Hi @DadJoke is Isla Bryson a woman in your view and should IB be in women’s loos and women’s prisons?

Can we all just keep asking this till he actually replies?

Bare in mind Bryson only found his 'true self' once waiting to be sentenced for rape. His ex wife, who he battered and raped said he never mentioned anything about his 'ladyness' in his life prior to waiting to be sentenced.

So is this rapist a woman @DadJoke ?

And once released you think he should be able to change and urinate next to girls?

duc748 · 03/04/2024 12:38

The system we had for the last hundred years or so worked tolerably well.

Kucinghitam · 03/04/2024 12:43

This copious stuff that's dripping from Bollock-Juggling-Comedian's posts - is it contempt, or is it something more like, um, milt? 🤮

JanesLittleGirl · 03/04/2024 12:47

Kucinghitam · 03/04/2024 12:43

This copious stuff that's dripping from Bollock-Juggling-Comedian's posts - is it contempt, or is it something more like, um, milt? 🤮

I believe that the technical expression is goat wank.

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 12:53

You do wonder why the Government would bother to state that new buildings must provide single sex facilities if there hadn't been stated concerns?

www.gov.uk/government/news/new-building-requirements-for-separate-male-and-female-toilets#:~:text=separate%20single%2Dsex%20toilets%20facilities,allows%20only%20a%20single%20toilet

And again, single sex toilets. The presence of a male makes it a mixed sex toilet, despite fairytale magic legal fictions.

murasaki · 03/04/2024 12:56

I think he's a bot, he just keeps repeating himself and not answering questions.

GailBlancheViola · 03/04/2024 12:57

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:01

Do you dispute that trans women have been using women's toilets for decades? Do you think they are doing so illegally?

I recommend you take a look at AEA vs EHRC, where gender critical arguments to this effect were dismissed.

Yes I do dispute that TW have been using women's toilets for decades, where is your evidence to back up this claim?

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2024 12:57

I was going to put this on the JKR exposing the guff laws thread, but its full now but I think its really relevant to this ongoing discussion:

There are protections on the basis of religion within the new scottish hate crime law.

There is no UNIVERSAL definition of religion within english (or scottish) law at present however there IS case law about what constitutes religion in various separate areas of law.

I note the following:
Discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief was originally prohibited in England and Wales in relation only to employment, under the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003, which defined religion or belief as meaning ‘any religion, religious belief, or similar philosophical belief’. Employment Tribunals used the word ‘similar’ to exclude certain non-religious beliefs such as nationalistic and political beliefs. However, the Equality Act 2006, which extended religion or belief discrimination to cover the provisions of goods and services, took the opportunity to remove the word ‘similar’ and to expressly include lack of belief. The current definition, now found in section 10 of the Equality Act 2010, states that ‘religion means any religion’ and ‘belief means any religious or philosophical belief’.

AND

the decision of the Employment Appeal Tribunal in Grainger PLC v Nicholson, which concluded that an asserted belief in manmade climate change, together with the alleged resulting moral imperatives arising from it, was capable of constituting a ‘philosophical belief’ for the purpose of the 2003 Regulations because it met the criteria laid out by the jurisprudence of the European Court of Human Rights which was directly relevant. Employment Judge Burton summarised the meaning of ‘philosophical belief’ as including five requirements:

  1. (i) The belief must be genuinely held.
  2. (ii) It must be a belief and not … an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available.
  3. (iii) It must be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour.
  4. (iv) It must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance.
  5. (v) It must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, be not incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.

So in terms of hate law and its implimentations, we've potentially got a paradox if its fundamental to your job to say: understand biology or the impact of trauma on women who have been victims of domestic abuse.

How do you deal with the potential that you might be done for a hate crime if you HAVE to acknowledge sex or safeguarding as part of your job too. You could be held negligent if you DON'T raise certain questions too.

Equally, a non-crime mark on your DBS which prevented you from say working from children because of a belief WORIADS would be slightly problematic because it would effectively be at odds with employment laws on discrimination by merely being a belief even if its not catergorised as a religious belief by the Scottish Government or within the hate law definitions (cos the Scottish Government HAS to beholden to the ECHR even if it doesn't answer to Westminister on this matter).

Other areas of law also make a point that religious protection ALSO applies to individuals who DON'T share a belief. In other words in certain situations someone could claim they have been discriminated against because they DON'T share a religious belief and are atheist.

Given theres a case to make that gender identity is a religious belief due to the 'concept of being born in the wrong body' (which a lot of organisations have suddenly backed away from) and the idea of souls you could argue that Gender Critical Beliefs are protected as they are worth of respect but oppositional to these religious beliefs too.

There is PLENTY of conflict between existing law and the idea that being gender critical is in any way hate. The issue is how this is enforced and the way that the fear of enforcing it is held (the threat of being reported is included in this as its a form of intimidation) and whether someone might be forced to go through court to uphold their legally held and respectful beliefs.

Quite frankly its a fucking awful mess tbh. And makes many of the same mistakes as the Equality Act in terms of poor definitions.

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:59

Choochuw · 03/04/2024 12:37

Can we all just keep asking this till he actually replies?

Bare in mind Bryson only found his 'true self' once waiting to be sentenced for rape. His ex wife, who he battered and raped said he never mentioned anything about his 'ladyness' in his life prior to waiting to be sentenced.

So is this rapist a woman @DadJoke ?

And once released you think he should be able to change and urinate next to girls?

Isla Bryson is, and should, be kept on the men's estate, as is the current policy, as Sturgeon confirmed. She was briefly held in solitary on the women's estate. As always, people should be treated on a case-by-case basis. A trans women who has committed non-sexual, non-violent crimes should go to the women's estate.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 03/04/2024 13:00

You still havent answered the question dadjoke

AlecTrevelyan006 · 03/04/2024 13:00

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:59

Isla Bryson is, and should, be kept on the men's estate, as is the current policy, as Sturgeon confirmed. She was briefly held in solitary on the women's estate. As always, people should be treated on a case-by-case basis. A trans women who has committed non-sexual, non-violent crimes should go to the women's estate.

why don't we put non-violent male criminals in the female estate?

Justnot · 03/04/2024 13:01

DJ why do you think that TW have the right to use women’s toilets? you just keep repeating the same old shit - it doesn’t make it true and it definitely doesn’t make it right

Are you just relying on the lack of clarity around the meaning of gender and sex? So you know that the intention behind the various laws was never to give men access to women’s spaces but if you can get away with it you will?!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:03

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:59

Isla Bryson is, and should, be kept on the men's estate, as is the current policy, as Sturgeon confirmed. She was briefly held in solitary on the women's estate. As always, people should be treated on a case-by-case basis. A trans women who has committed non-sexual, non-violent crimes should go to the women's estate.

Isla Bryson will be released from prison in 2031.

Should Isla be allowed to use women's public toilets in 2031?

Please answer yes or no, and explain the reason for your answer.

Soontobe60 · 03/04/2024 13:05

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:35

You might not like it, you might want to end it, but trans women have to legal right to be in women's toilets..

There is no statistical evidence whatsoever that this has any impact on women.

But I am all ears. How would you police chromosome-based toilets? If you think men pretending to be women is an issue) how would you prevent men pretending to be trans men using the facilities? How would you stop GNC women from being targetted by gender critical activists?

Let's here a coherent policy which addresses gender critical peoples' "legitimate concerns."

Why are you so keen that men can access women in single sex spaces? Why do you think single sex toilets exist in the first place? After all, not all men are sex pests. Safeguarding aims to reduce the risk of harm to zero. So, because we have no idea which men may harm us and which men won’t, we reduce the risk to zero by saying no men in single sex spaces. It’s easy to understand.
By your ‘argument’, the obvious conclusion is that there should not be any singe sex provision.
The problem with this is that men who claim to be women, particularly AGP men, get a thrill out of invading women’s spaces. When given the option of using ‘gender neutral’ toilets / changing rooms, they dont get validated, so they refuse.
So once again, why do you think any man should be able to access single sex spaces?

Soontobe60 · 03/04/2024 13:08

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:59

Isla Bryson is, and should, be kept on the men's estate, as is the current policy, as Sturgeon confirmed. She was briefly held in solitary on the women's estate. As always, people should be treated on a case-by-case basis. A trans women who has committed non-sexual, non-violent crimes should go to the women's estate.

But why? If IB as a ‘she’, why shouldn't IB be placed in a women’s prison? Some people would say that’s being very transphobic!
And what about all the male prisoners that only claim to be ‘trans’ when they’ve been arrested, or found guilty, or have actually ended up in the male prison estate? According to the MOJ, these transwomen have a much higher rate of having committed a violent crime, sex crime, murder.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/government-figures-70-per-cent-of-transgender-prisoners-are/#:~:text=We%20changed%20the%20rules%20last,unless%20in%20truly%20exceptional%20circumstances.”

HOW CAN WE KNOW WHICH ONES ARE GENUINELY TRANS? (CLUE - NONE OF THEM)

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 13:09

AlecTrevelyan006 · 03/04/2024 13:00

why don't we put non-violent male criminals in the female estate?

Ah, they do in Scotland! There's currently 3 male murderers in the female prison estate in Scotland.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13256265/Why-three-biologically-male-trans-murderers-held-female-prisoners-women-jails.html

All in line with the SPS policy!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/11/transwomen-criminals-prisons-scotland-theresa-medhurst/

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 13:11

Soontobe60 · 03/04/2024 13:08

But why? If IB as a ‘she’, why shouldn't IB be placed in a women’s prison? Some people would say that’s being very transphobic!
And what about all the male prisoners that only claim to be ‘trans’ when they’ve been arrested, or found guilty, or have actually ended up in the male prison estate? According to the MOJ, these transwomen have a much higher rate of having committed a violent crime, sex crime, murder.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/government-figures-70-per-cent-of-transgender-prisoners-are/#:~:text=We%20changed%20the%20rules%20last,unless%20in%20truly%20exceptional%20circumstances.”

HOW CAN WE KNOW WHICH ONES ARE GENUINELY TRANS? (CLUE - NONE OF THEM)

Edited

Ah yes, Onset Prison Gender Disorder!

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons

Concern after new research suggested that men who changed their gender to female in jail are switching back to their birth gender after release.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 13:12

A trans women who has committed non-sexual, non-violent crimes should go to the women's estate

Why?

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:15

Justnot · 03/04/2024 13:01

DJ why do you think that TW have the right to use women’s toilets? you just keep repeating the same old shit - it doesn’t make it true and it definitely doesn’t make it right

Are you just relying on the lack of clarity around the meaning of gender and sex? So you know that the intention behind the various laws was never to give men access to women’s spaces but if you can get away with it you will?!

I'll start with these questions. Do you think trans women use the women's toilets? Can you think of any case where a trans women was arrested for using the women's toilets? Can you think of a single successful legal challenge against trans women using women's toilets?

There is a difference between should not and don't. At least start by accepting that they do, and argue against it.

If you can't even acknowledge that trans women are, in fact, using women's toilets, there is very little point in discussing this any further.

maltravers · 03/04/2024 13:15

Yes @Waitwhat23 but that would be down to SPS not the SNP, no sirree!

Anyway, back to @DadJoke and the fragrant Isla, who I note is a “She” to him. Presumably our mirthful patriarch thinks all unconvicted sex offenders and violent men (most are unconvicted) are fine to make the most of the ladies - they have no conviction yet after all, so don’t be complaining now!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:17

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:15

I'll start with these questions. Do you think trans women use the women's toilets? Can you think of any case where a trans women was arrested for using the women's toilets? Can you think of a single successful legal challenge against trans women using women's toilets?

There is a difference between should not and don't. At least start by accepting that they do, and argue against it.

If you can't even acknowledge that trans women are, in fact, using women's toilets, there is very little point in discussing this any further.

Edited

@DadJoke.

Isla Bryson will be released from prison in 2031.

Which public toilets and changing rooms should Isla Bryson be using from 2031 onwards?

maltravers · 03/04/2024 13:17

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:15

I'll start with these questions. Do you think trans women use the women's toilets? Can you think of any case where a trans women was arrested for using the women's toilets? Can you think of a single successful legal challenge against trans women using women's toilets?

There is a difference between should not and don't. At least start by accepting that they do, and argue against it.

If you can't even acknowledge that trans women are, in fact, using women's toilets, there is very little point in discussing this any further.

Edited

We wouldn’t be complaining about TW using the ladies if they didn’t from time to time. Men do all sorts of undesirable and frankly pervy things, that doesn’t make them ok dear.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:18

maltravers · 03/04/2024 13:17

We wouldn’t be complaining about TW using the ladies if they didn’t from time to time. Men do all sorts of undesirable and frankly pervy things, that doesn’t make them ok dear.

Exactly, what a dumb argument.

If they weren't doing it, no one would care.

Brefugee · 03/04/2024 13:18

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:01

Do you dispute that trans women have been using women's toilets for decades? Do you think they are doing so illegally?

I recommend you take a look at AEA vs EHRC, where gender critical arguments to this effect were dismissed.

the reason there is so much "backlash" against TW isn't down to the ones who were using our facilities for years. Frankly, most people didn't notice, and there were so few and they tended to discretion so most people just let them get on with it.

There was no performative tampon sharing or discussion about M&S finest underwear. There certainly wasn't any wanking and making public this activity, or photos, or pictures of them with barbed-wire covered baseball bats going terf hunting.

The activities of TRAs and the Malaga Airport Brigade and their handmaidens is what has done it. The screaming at women speaking about their experiences. The posters the entirety of the vomit-inducing output of people like that Sparkles person, IW, Wallace Bryson and the fucking Drag Queens. It has been relentless.

And in the end, the people who will suffer? women. And the quiet, discreet trying to live their lives TW that came before. FFS it has been a complete and utter binfire.

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