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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's hour 2nd April 2024 JKR's 'hate' thread

556 replies

WarriorN · 02/04/2024 10:08

First item is the Hate bill and JK's tweets - they did invite her on but haven't heard back yet

For women Scotland will be on too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
maltravers · 03/04/2024 13:19

Why shouldn’t they? At least some will be getting off on the noises and the fear. That’s the reality as I’m sure you know.

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 13:19

Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 13:09

Headslap read that wrong!

But in any case, under SPS policy violent men are sent to the female estate!

maltravers · 03/04/2024 13:21

Certainly in Korea there was reported to be an epidemic of men placing cameras in women’s loos. Could this happen here? Of course.

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:17

@DadJoke.

Isla Bryson will be released from prison in 2031.

Which public toilets and changing rooms should Isla Bryson be using from 2031 onwards?

Which toliets do you think women offenders who target other women should use when they are released from prison? That's your answer.

maltravers · 03/04/2024 13:22

And if you allow TW in, you allow any man in. Some of those men will be sex offenders who put women at risk.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:23

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:22

Which toliets do you think women offenders who target other women should use when they are released from prison? That's your answer.

I think they should use the toilets for their own biological sex.

That would mean that Isla Bryson should be using the men's.

Do you agree?

ADoggyDogWorld · 03/04/2024 13:23

Amazing the contortions needed to not answer a question. Just sayin'.

Snowypeaks · 03/04/2024 13:23

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2024 12:57

I was going to put this on the JKR exposing the guff laws thread, but its full now but I think its really relevant to this ongoing discussion:

There are protections on the basis of religion within the new scottish hate crime law.

There is no UNIVERSAL definition of religion within english (or scottish) law at present however there IS case law about what constitutes religion in various separate areas of law.

I note the following:
Discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief was originally prohibited in England and Wales in relation only to employment, under the Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003, which defined religion or belief as meaning ‘any religion, religious belief, or similar philosophical belief’. Employment Tribunals used the word ‘similar’ to exclude certain non-religious beliefs such as nationalistic and political beliefs. However, the Equality Act 2006, which extended religion or belief discrimination to cover the provisions of goods and services, took the opportunity to remove the word ‘similar’ and to expressly include lack of belief. The current definition, now found in section 10 of the Equality Act 2010, states that ‘religion means any religion’ and ‘belief means any religious or philosophical belief’.

AND

the decision of the Employment Appeal Tribunal in Grainger PLC v Nicholson, which concluded that an asserted belief in manmade climate change, together with the alleged resulting moral imperatives arising from it, was capable of constituting a ‘philosophical belief’ for the purpose of the 2003 Regulations because it met the criteria laid out by the jurisprudence of the European Court of Human Rights which was directly relevant. Employment Judge Burton summarised the meaning of ‘philosophical belief’ as including five requirements:

  1. (i) The belief must be genuinely held.
  2. (ii) It must be a belief and not … an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available.
  3. (iii) It must be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour.
  4. (iv) It must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance.
  5. (v) It must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, be not incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.

So in terms of hate law and its implimentations, we've potentially got a paradox if its fundamental to your job to say: understand biology or the impact of trauma on women who have been victims of domestic abuse.

How do you deal with the potential that you might be done for a hate crime if you HAVE to acknowledge sex or safeguarding as part of your job too. You could be held negligent if you DON'T raise certain questions too.

Equally, a non-crime mark on your DBS which prevented you from say working from children because of a belief WORIADS would be slightly problematic because it would effectively be at odds with employment laws on discrimination by merely being a belief even if its not catergorised as a religious belief by the Scottish Government or within the hate law definitions (cos the Scottish Government HAS to beholden to the ECHR even if it doesn't answer to Westminister on this matter).

Other areas of law also make a point that religious protection ALSO applies to individuals who DON'T share a belief. In other words in certain situations someone could claim they have been discriminated against because they DON'T share a religious belief and are atheist.

Given theres a case to make that gender identity is a religious belief due to the 'concept of being born in the wrong body' (which a lot of organisations have suddenly backed away from) and the idea of souls you could argue that Gender Critical Beliefs are protected as they are worth of respect but oppositional to these religious beliefs too.

There is PLENTY of conflict between existing law and the idea that being gender critical is in any way hate. The issue is how this is enforced and the way that the fear of enforcing it is held (the threat of being reported is included in this as its a form of intimidation) and whether someone might be forced to go through court to uphold their legally held and respectful beliefs.

Quite frankly its a fucking awful mess tbh. And makes many of the same mistakes as the Equality Act in terms of poor definitions.

There's a lot in that but I don't think the vague definitions are a mistake - it's yet more deliberate overreach, giving police and courts the widest possible latitude for interpretation of the meaning of words like "hatred". Just like the Irish version of this law.

I also want to defend the EA2010 definitions. The vague meanings or inconsistent uses of language are mainly around GR, because it is a difficult-to-define concept - part objective, part subjective - based on a legal fiction created by the GRA.
The wording around Sex is very clear, no wording is 100% proof against bad faith interpretation.

dapsnotplimsolls · 03/04/2024 13:24

@DadJoke , I asked this question yesterday and I don't think you answered, so I'll try again.

Why do you think single-sex spaces exist?

Justnot · 03/04/2024 13:26

I keep having to go off and read the DJ ‘evidence’ - as usual it doesn’t mean what DJ thinks it means! AEA vs EHRC - AEA was looking to clarify a code of practice for service providers and EHRC was saying they already provided for a transpersons right to access single sex services on a case by case basis where the other users rights to access single sex services would also be considered - it’s about the balancing of these rights - all agreed the COP needs clarifying and updating

had a Quick Look at sex matters and they seem to be saying that the case by case bit is unworkable - more and more organisations reporting this as they try to apply it

I have no idea what point DJ thinks they are making re TW are already using women’s toilets - I mean no shit Sherlock

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:23

I think they should use the toilets for their own biological sex.

That would mean that Isla Bryson should be using the men's.

Do you agree?

So, you think that people shouldn't be excluded from single sex spaces on the basis that they are violent offenders, once they've served their time. We agree. Where we disagree is whether trans women should be excluded from single sex spaces. So yes, women, including trans women, who have served their time for any offence should use the toilet in the current legal fashion.

maltravers · 03/04/2024 13:27

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:22

Which toliets do you think women offenders who target other women should use when they are released from prison? That's your answer.

Isla’s a man though, or rapistgender according to that renowned gender critical Nicola Sturgeon.

BackToLurk · 03/04/2024 13:30

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:35

You might not like it, you might want to end it, but trans women have to legal right to be in women's toilets..

There is no statistical evidence whatsoever that this has any impact on women.

But I am all ears. How would you police chromosome-based toilets? If you think men pretending to be women is an issue) how would you prevent men pretending to be trans men using the facilities? How would you stop GNC women from being targetted by gender critical activists?

Let's here a coherent policy which addresses gender critical peoples' "legitimate concerns."

I'll have a go. I'd say that some toilets are male or female only. Let's call them men's and women's . These are for people of that sex only. A biological category. This would largely be self-policing. (I hope you aren't suggesting btw that once this has been specified transgender people would routinely use the toilet that doesn't align with their sex). I'd supplement this single-sex provision with third spaces for those people who, for whatever reason, are uncomfortable in the toilets that align with their natal sex. Clearly, as with many, many laws this is imperfect. There may well be some transpeople who pass entirely. If they used the toilet that didn't align with their sex then no-one would be any the wiser. such usage would need to be between the transperson and their conscience. However such a system protects women as it makes their ability to challenge non-females in their toilets easier.

Now it's your turn. If you believe that transwomen should be allowed to use women's toilets firstly how would you define a transwoman & secondly how would police this? That is how would you ensure every transwoman using the women's toilets met your definition?

ErrolTheDragon · 03/04/2024 13:31

We agree. Where we disagree is whether trans women should be excluded from single sex spaces.

Of course they shouldn't. They should definitely not be excluded from the single sex space matching their sex - male. Afaik they aren't - there are transwomen who respect women's rights who use the appropriate sex loo (male, if you're confused).

If you think that single sex spaces should actually be 'single gender' spaces, I've yet to hear any rationale or definition.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/04/2024 13:31

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:26

So, you think that people shouldn't be excluded from single sex spaces on the basis that they are violent offenders, once they've served their time. We agree. Where we disagree is whether trans women should be excluded from single sex spaces. So yes, women, including trans women, who have served their time for any offence should use the toilet in the current legal fashion.

So what you are saying, @DadJoke is that you think it is absolutely OK for a violent, male born rapist to access the women's toilets, and you don't give a single fuck about the danger that would be to actual, female women and girls.

Nailing your misogynist colours firmly to the mast there.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:32

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:26

So, you think that people shouldn't be excluded from single sex spaces on the basis that they are violent offenders, once they've served their time. We agree. Where we disagree is whether trans women should be excluded from single sex spaces. So yes, women, including trans women, who have served their time for any offence should use the toilet in the current legal fashion.

No.

Nobody is excluded from single sex spaces, because there are single sex spaces for both sexes and everyone is either one or the other.

Isla Bryson is male and should use single sex spaces for male people.

You believe that Isla Bryson, a convicted rapist, should be able to enter women only single sex spaces where vulnerable women may be using the toilet or in a state of undress, once he is released. Is that correct?

Justnot · 03/04/2024 13:32

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-building-requirements-for-separate-male-and-female-toilets

New regulations and guidance will mean women, who may need to use facilities more often because of pregnancy or sanitary needs, will now be guaranteed appropriate facilities either through a separate single-sex space or through a self-contained, private toilet.

Read it and weep DJ, read it and weep………

New building requirements for separate male and female toilets

Government confirms measures to reverse the rise of gender-neutral toilets as part of wider efforts to protect single sex spaces.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-building-requirements-for-separate-male-and-female-toilets

pickledandpuzzled · 03/04/2024 13:32

Gawd, DadJoke’s really not very funny. 🥱

JKR on the other hand, is a queen - concise, witty and devastatingly effective.

This thread is about JKR on Women’s Hour and that phenomenal take down on X.

DJ’s mates are losing their grip. The glaringly obvious will inevitably carry the day.

LilyBartsHatShop · 03/04/2024 13:34

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 12:35

You might not like it, you might want to end it, but trans women have to legal right to be in women's toilets..

There is no statistical evidence whatsoever that this has any impact on women.

But I am all ears. How would you police chromosome-based toilets? If you think men pretending to be women is an issue) how would you prevent men pretending to be trans men using the facilities? How would you stop GNC women from being targetted by gender critical activists?

Let's here a coherent policy which addresses gender critical peoples' "legitimate concerns."

This must be the most tedious game of Bingo in the history of forever.
I remember when I was young public toilets that were open 24 hours had a big red button in them that would communicate directly to nearby police that they were needed there.
Or are you suggesting that trans women, on being told that public amenities are to be sgregated on the basis of sex with no exceptions, would become so aggresive it would overwhelm our current systems for policing public toilets?

maltravers · 03/04/2024 13:36

I think @Dadjoke might be getting his legal advice from Stonewall Law.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:39

This is a helpful thread though and I hope there are a few lurkers reading this and taking note.

@DadJoke, who considers himself to be on the right side of history unlike us nasty TERFs, believes that a man who is currently serving an eight year prison sentence for raping two women should have full access to all women's single sex spaces from the day of his release, because he claims to "identify as a woman".

You really couldn't make this shit up.

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:39

Justnot · 03/04/2024 13:26

I keep having to go off and read the DJ ‘evidence’ - as usual it doesn’t mean what DJ thinks it means! AEA vs EHRC - AEA was looking to clarify a code of practice for service providers and EHRC was saying they already provided for a transpersons right to access single sex services on a case by case basis where the other users rights to access single sex services would also be considered - it’s about the balancing of these rights - all agreed the COP needs clarifying and updating

had a Quick Look at sex matters and they seem to be saying that the case by case bit is unworkable - more and more organisations reporting this as they try to apply it

I have no idea what point DJ thinks they are making re TW are already using women’s toilets - I mean no shit Sherlock

Because people here are denying it - I agree it's quite ridiculous. Are you suggesting that they are doing so illegally, or are you arguing to change the law?

This is what AEA vs EHRC said. AEA challenged the legality of EHRC statutory guidance over single sex spaces. Here is the disputed guidance, which clearly follows the law:

  • 3.57 - If a service provider provides single- or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
  • 13.58 - The intention is to ensure that the transsexual person is treated in a way that best meets their needs. Service providers need to be aware that transsexual people may need access to services relating to their birth sex which are otherwise provided only to people of that sex. For example, a transsexual man may need access to breast screening or gynaecological services. In order to protect the privacy of all users, it is recommended that the service provider should discuss with any transsexual service users the best way to enable them to have access to the service.
  • Example: A clothes shop has separate changing areas for male and female customers to try on garments in cubicles. The shop concludes that it would not be appropriate or necessary to exclude a transsexual woman from the female changing room as privacy and decency of all users can be assured by the provision of separate cubicles.13.59 - Service providers should be aware that where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person of that gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender, unless there are strong reasons to the contrary.
  • 13.60 - As stated at the beginning of this chapter, any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances. A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances. Service providers will need to balance the need of the transsexual person for the service and the detriment to them if they are denied access, against the needs of other service users and any detriment that may affect them if the transsexual person has access to the service. To do this will often require discussion with service users (maintaining confidentiality for the transsexual service user). Care should be taken in each case to avoid a decision based on ignorance or prejudice. Also, the provider will need to show that a less discriminatory way to achieve the objective was not available.

The judge dismissed the challenge.

However, it is in my view clear beyond argument that Parliament has chosen, in the 2010 Act, to place transsexual persons in a different position from the generality of persons of their birth sex. What effect that has in particular
circumstances will depend upon the application of the provisions in the Act, including the Schedule 3, para. 28 justification exception, to those circumstances. I do not accept the claimant's contention that the Code makes clear errors of law in the way in which it sets the position out. On the contrary, I consider the claimant's construction of the Act itself to be clearly wrong in law for the reasons I have summarised.

Read the full judgment, which dismissed all claims.

https://oldsquare.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/R-on-application-of-AEA-v-EHRC-2021-EWHC-1623-Admin.pdf

https://oldsquare.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/R-on-application-of-AEA-v-EHRC-2021-EWHC-1623-Admin.pdf

ErrolTheDragon · 03/04/2024 13:39

How would you police chromosome-based toilets?

At least it's a comprehensible notion ... how would you police 'gender based' ones? (Afaik judging from the current abuses of women's spaces, the de facto changing of single sex spaces to 'preferred gender' ones hasn't worked at all well. Not for women, at any rate).

DadJoke · 03/04/2024 13:46

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/04/2024 13:39

This is a helpful thread though and I hope there are a few lurkers reading this and taking note.

@DadJoke, who considers himself to be on the right side of history unlike us nasty TERFs, believes that a man who is currently serving an eight year prison sentence for raping two women should have full access to all women's single sex spaces from the day of his release, because he claims to "identify as a woman".

You really couldn't make this shit up.

No, I don't think she should be excluded from them for being a trans woman. It's always on a case-by-case basis. Sex offenders can be excluded from certain jobs and spaces, but that's not an argument to exclude all members of a protected category, because we all know where that leads. If you think women who sex offend against other women should be excluded from using women's toilets, that's consistent, at least. I don't agree.

I don't think Lucy Letby should be working with children when she is released, however, I don't think Lily Cade, who has admitted to sexually assaulting other women should be banned from women's toilets.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/04/2024 13:46

I wonder if the women in @DadJoke's life realise how little he actually cares for their safety or dignity. He would be happy for male born rapist Isla Bryson to be in the Ladies loos with them, or stripping off next to them in a changing room.

He clearly wouldn't care if a young teenage girl was approached by the transwoman who has stated on social media that he would like to help a young girl insert her first tampon.