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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The chair of SEEN is being sued.

455 replies

PriOn1 · 19/03/2024 18:07

We can’t post Crowdfunder links here, but there is now a Crowdfunder entitled “Chair of SEEN sued for saying 'only women menstruate'by Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley”

Text from website:

Who are you?
I'm Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley. I work for an arms-length body to a government department (part of the Civil Service) and love my job. I'm also gender critical, and chair of a governmental department SEEN (Sex Equality and Equity Network). SEEN represents those who are gender critical in our workplace.
What can you tell us?
The way I describe the case is restrained by my situation. I am writing this in a personal capacity, but am still employed and must comply with my employer's code of conduct and the Nolan Principles of Public Life. This places certain restrictions on me.
I’ve given as much information as I can, but I hope that what I set out below is sufficient to understand what’s going on.
So what happened?
I work for an arms-length body to the main government department. The case has been brought by a claimant who is an employee of another arms-length body. The claimant is taking their own employer, the government department and me to court.
Among other matters, the claimant is suing the government department for allowing our departmental SEEN network to exist (on the basis that the existence of the network has the effect of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating and/or offensive environment for the claimant).
What is the SEEN network?
SEEN (the Sex Equality and Equity Network) is an official cross-governmental staff network. We also have networks in three government departments (including the one being taken to court). SEEN is known as the gender critical network and is the only civil service network that clearly treats sex and sexual orientation as concepts defined in the Equality Act, which should never be conflated with or replaced by ‘gender identity’.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
stickygotstuck · 21/03/2024 12:01

@ArrestHer , thanks very much.

So it relies on the lawyers being honest AND the client being able to listen/change tack. Makes sense.

The bit I really struggle with is no. 3 - if you have no case and proceed, despite being advised professionally and correctly that you don't, how come everybody else has to shell out money too? Should all costs not fall on the litigant?

(I am dubious about the motives for the lawyers who accept to represent them, is it 'just' money? In which case, should they not bear some of the costs too?)

ResisterRex · 21/03/2024 12:06

@ArrestHer thanks also from me.

Do you have a sense of whether this could be a "no win, no fee" kind of case? It's just that to a non-legal person, it seems such a bizarre case. And not one you'd really think of for that sort of basis of representation.

Chersfrozenface · 21/03/2024 12:16

I imagine a litigant could find a "legal adviser" who is both 100% committed to gender ideology and very stupid.

I've known, or known of, a couple of monumentally stupid solicitors in my time.

CriticalCondition · 21/03/2024 12:24

Can any employment lawyers here enlighten us on whether disciplinary action against a named individual is a legitimate remedy to seek in an action such as this? In other words one that an ET could in theory recognise?

It doesn't sound right to me. Surely an ET can't require an employer to say, sack, demote or sanction an employee. It suggests, to me at least, that the claimant is a litigant in person on a crusade possibly with a self-identified lawyer in the background willing to give 'legal advice' without putting their name on any proceedings. But I'm not an employment lawyer.

HagoftheNorth · 21/03/2024 12:25

Might also be (as pp so eloquently put it earlier) a pro boner case with committed legal pros actively looking for these ‘opportunities’

ArrestHer · 21/03/2024 12:28

ResisterRex · 21/03/2024 12:06

@ArrestHer thanks also from me.

Do you have a sense of whether this could be a "no win, no fee" kind of case? It's just that to a non-legal person, it seems such a bizarre case. And not one you'd really think of for that sort of basis of representation.

I mean it’s been ten years since I booked legal work (possibly more) but for that to work you have to be pretty bloody certain of an award. Typical conditional fee agreement cases (NWNF) would be in injury claims where there is a clear body of law and test cases setting out the likely award for the harm. It means that as long as the lawyer is confident in the merit of the case then they can take a sensible guess at an award and so their fee.

My gut says this is harder to quantify so I wouldn’t touch this on a CFA. But that’s not to say an ideologically driven lawyer wouldn’t do so, or even act pro bono.

Solicitors and barristers can hold personal views over professional best practice sometimes. They are (mostly) human. I’ve met some where it was doubtful.

SqueakyDinosaur · 21/03/2024 12:32

Message from Elspeth on her page:

Dear All, thank you so much for your incredible support. I have been so moved by your generosity and kind words.

I never expected to reach the target so soon, or to see such a groundswell of solidarity.

Your amazing support has put me in a place where I now have sufficient funds to take the matter to the next stage. That is breathtaking.

Given the inherent uncertainty of the process I don’t want to ask for any more until it’s clear it is needed. As such I’m going to pause the crowdfunder shortly until we know more.

Thank you all. I cannot express to you my gratitude for making it possible to defend myself, but also in letting me know I don’t stand alone.

Elspeth

Villagetoraiseachild · 21/03/2024 12:47

IANAL, but I think its pro bono not pro boner.

stickygotstuck · 21/03/2024 12:51

Villagetoraiseachild · 21/03/2024 12:47

IANAL, but I think its pro bono not pro boner.

I assumed it was not an unintentional slip... 😶

JumpInAndSwim · 21/03/2024 12:59

Thanks @SqueakyDinosaur

Good to hear Elspeth feels supported.

Initial funding is now one less thing for her to worry about.

ResisterRex · 21/03/2024 13:37

Thank you @ArrestHer

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 21/03/2024 13:41

Villagetoraiseachild · 21/03/2024 12:47

IANAL, but I think its pro bono not pro boner.

It was a typo in another thread and was seized upon as an appropriate Freudian Slip.

IamRoyFuckingKent · 21/03/2024 14:11

Villagetoraiseachild · 21/03/2024 12:47

IANAL, but I think its pro bono not pro boner.

😂

SqueakyDinosaur · 21/03/2024 14:20

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 21/03/2024 13:41

It was a typo in another thread and was seized upon as an appropriate Freudian Slip.

Or, as the magnificently awful Jackson Lamb puts it in one of the Slow Horses books, a Freudian slit.

Navyblueblazer · 21/03/2024 15:44

Great news to wake up to in the USA!

Iamnotalemming · 22/03/2024 10:40

https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/solicitor-sued-saying-only-women-menstruate

Story now also reported here

Including some comments given by Maya Forstater. Apparently A:gender declined to comment, and Defra spokesperson said they were unable to comment.

Solicitor sued for saying only women menstruate | RollOnFriday

Seeing red

https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/solicitor-sued-saying-only-women-menstruate

HagoftheNorth · 22/03/2024 15:03

Poll at the end “can men get periods?” No responses > 90%, although obv people who believe men can have periods may be choosing not to read such a ‘triggering’ article ….

RumNotRun · 25/03/2024 13:18
Celebrate We The Best GIF by Booksmart

It's been withdrawn 🍸🙌❤ Well, the complaint against Elspeth personally. The hearing has also been postponed for the case against SEEN and DEFRA.

ArabellaScott · 25/03/2024 13:20

Glad to hear that.

Watching with interest to see how the rest plays out.

duc748 · 25/03/2024 13:27

That's interesting (and good to hear, of course)!

UltraLiteLife · 25/03/2024 13:27
Celebrate Ice Hockey GIF by NHL

Excellent for EDW and I'm delighted that another woman won't have to go through this stress and turmoil.

If it does ahead, I wonder if EDW can be added as an interested party (she expressed a wish for this).

Gritty strikes me as a sort of hate monster lookalike but with different attitudes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/pul3mn/the_world_was_first_introduced_to_gritty_three/

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 25/03/2024 13:36

RumNotRun · 25/03/2024 13:18

It's been withdrawn 🍸🙌❤ Well, the complaint against Elspeth personally. The hearing has also been postponed for the case against SEEN and DEFRA.

I thought a personal case against EDW was misconceived from the start, even on general legal principles. Glad to hear the news.

Boiledbeetle · 25/03/2024 13:38

RumNotRun · 25/03/2024 13:18

It's been withdrawn 🍸🙌❤ Well, the complaint against Elspeth personally. The hearing has also been postponed for the case against SEEN and DEFRA.

Excellent news!

Boiledbeetle · 25/03/2024 13:40

From crowd justice page:

Case against me withdrawn! But the fight goes on ...Dear all, I have an important and exciting update on the case.

After so many of you generously enabled me to reach my initial crowdfunded target of £40k, the claimant has now formally withdrawn the claim against me.

It has always been my position that this claim was vexatious and without merit. It is disappointing that it took almost four months after the original claim was lodged and mere days before the first hearing before it was formally withdrawn. But I am obviously relieved this has happened.

However, this does not end things. The claimant is still seeking remedies which would directly impact me, those who are gender critical within the Civil Service, and the SEEN network. For this reason I am seeking to remain on the action as an Interested Party, to ensure that none of these remedies are implemented.

We had hoped that this would be considered in a hearing today. However, due to lack of judicial time this hearing has been delayed. Once we know when it will be rescheduled I will provide a further update here.

I am incredibly grateful for the generosity of everyone who donated to my crowdfunder without which I would not be able to continue.

I have been overwhelmed by the swell of support for my case and touched by the kindness of all your messages.

Thank you all.

Fenlandia · 25/03/2024 13:47

Great news, but yet again, someone has had this hanging over them for months. The process is the punishment.