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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The chair of SEEN is being sued.

1000 replies

PriOn1 · 19/03/2024 18:07

We can’t post Crowdfunder links here, but there is now a Crowdfunder entitled “Chair of SEEN sued for saying 'only women menstruate'by Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley”

Text from website:

Who are you?
I'm Elspeth Duemmer Wrigley. I work for an arms-length body to a government department (part of the Civil Service) and love my job. I'm also gender critical, and chair of a governmental department SEEN (Sex Equality and Equity Network). SEEN represents those who are gender critical in our workplace.
What can you tell us?
The way I describe the case is restrained by my situation. I am writing this in a personal capacity, but am still employed and must comply with my employer's code of conduct and the Nolan Principles of Public Life. This places certain restrictions on me.
I’ve given as much information as I can, but I hope that what I set out below is sufficient to understand what’s going on.
So what happened?
I work for an arms-length body to the main government department. The case has been brought by a claimant who is an employee of another arms-length body. The claimant is taking their own employer, the government department and me to court.
Among other matters, the claimant is suing the government department for allowing our departmental SEEN network to exist (on the basis that the existence of the network has the effect of creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating and/or offensive environment for the claimant).
What is the SEEN network?
SEEN (the Sex Equality and Equity Network) is an official cross-governmental staff network. We also have networks in three government departments (including the one being taken to court). SEEN is known as the gender critical network and is the only civil service network that clearly treats sex and sexual orientation as concepts defined in the Equality Act, which should never be conflated with or replaced by ‘gender identity’.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 25/06/2026 16:16

From TT:

AL: There's a reply to yours from a JBramwell - mentions 'flat earthers' - you would understand that to mean ppl with GC views?
ST: Don't think it's a reply to me
AL: But that would be your understanding of his comment?

AL: "Flat earthers" means those with GC views
J: Not sure ST can tell us that
AL: Very well, fair enough.

AL: p173 A post from you - that unmoderated free speech wd mean racist, homophobic etc views cd be on work platform. By "unmoderated" - that was not what was happening? Yammer was moderated?

BeMoreBear · 25/06/2026 16:19

But if they talk about it, it just creates a mess at work. That is what makes harmony in the workplace.

"Shut up, women. That's what makes harmony in the workplace."

anyolddinosaur · 25/06/2026 16:20

It isnt just women - remember Andreas was included once. It's anyone who says something ST doesnt like.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 25/06/2026 16:21

From TT:

ST: Was responding to a comment that some offence is OK to obtain free speech, and I'm saying that if you don't moderate you could potentially get literally anything said.

AL: And, you are grouping together what you describe as "transphobic" - that is how you would describe GC beliefs?
ST: I don't want to - I would replace transphobic" there with 'gender critical'?
J: They are synonymous in your view?

ST: Not sure 'phobia' but, if I could rewrite that comment and take 'transphobic' out and replace it with 'gender critical', yes.

J: I know you are talking hypotheticially, you were think of GC views when you wrote 'transphobic'?
ST: Yes, I would agree with that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 16:21

Tallisker · 25/06/2026 15:10

I wouldn’t be surprised if Tempest and chums actively stalked colleagues known to be GC to find posts to be offended by. They tried very hard to find out who the members of SEEN were.

Remember that woman who did all the FOIs?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 16:22

biddyboo · 25/06/2026 15:43

There is a thread on here about Laura Brown and her FOI requests...

x posted before I read later posts

duc748 · 25/06/2026 16:22

IIJM who wonders if anyone at Defra actually gets any work done at all, instead of arguing about policies and procedures all day long?

CriticalCondition · 25/06/2026 16:23

AL: "Flat earthers" means those with GC views
J: Not sure ST can tell us that
AL: Very well, fair enough.

AL sensibly recognises the judge really, really doesn't want to get into a debate with ST about flat earthers. Humanism was bad enough.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 25/06/2026 16:24

From TT:

AL: Your view is that a GC view is no different from a racist view -
ST: Not drawing that comparison, just mentioning various different hateful views.

J: And "inappropriate"?
ST: yes

AL: But you are drawing the equivalence that none of them should be expressed?
ST: On a work platform yes, absolutely

AL: I am at an end-of-topic - happy to continue or stop as you wish.

J: OK we will stop here. Remind ST not to discuss evidence etc overnight

[END OF SESSION]

CriticalCondition · 25/06/2026 16:24

BeMoreBear · 25/06/2026 16:19

But if they talk about it, it just creates a mess at work. That is what makes harmony in the workplace.

"Shut up, women. That's what makes harmony in the workplace."

Aka NC's scold's bridle.

BeMoreBear · 25/06/2026 16:28

anyolddinosaur · 25/06/2026 16:20

It isnt just women - remember Andreas was included once. It's anyone who says something ST doesnt like.

I bet you my house though that if everyone in SEEN had been male, and all the posters had been male, and the Chair of SEEN had been male, ST would not be sitting there now, and there would be no tribunal.

Shortpoet · 25/06/2026 16:30

ST: If you know offensive, you shouldn't say it.

I wonder if any of the 41 deleted posts will come back to bite this statement.

Boiledbeetle · 25/06/2026 16:33

terffert · 25/06/2026 14:29

From TT:

J: Your view is, it's appropriate to limit even the mere expression of holding a belief, for good relations?
AL: Yes that is what I'm trying to ask.
J: Distinction is between articulating the belief, and simply saying you hold it?

ST: I still say, negative effect in the workplace - should not be mentioned, stay away from it in the workplace.
J: Your proposition is that the mere articulation of GC belief is discrimintory?
ST: Yes, it erases transgender ppl

[My comment: omfg]

I've been lurking...

But I'm right there with you on the OMFG!

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 25/06/2026 16:33

I really wish that more people had online access because I found some bits of today's evidence as jaw-dropping as Dr Upton's. As someone said upthread, it's all the bonkers arguments we get here said out loud, under affirmation in a court of law.

We've only caught glimpses of the Claimant on camera as they've moved about the court room. Think more "Rose" than "Beth Upton" in appearance. They do indeed sound as if they have a lung condition like asthma or COPD that impacts their breathing, but I did note that their volume could increase quite a bit when they answered a question they felt strongly about.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 25/06/2026 16:37

biddyboo · 25/06/2026 16:25

She has written a lovely cry bully blog about it here:

https://lauradelcolbrown.com/Mumsnet-and-Mr-Mueller/

Good grief!

CriticalCondition · 25/06/2026 16:38

biddyboo · 25/06/2026 16:25

She has written a lovely cry bully blog about it here:

https://lauradelcolbrown.com/Mumsnet-and-Mr-Mueller/

Bloody hell!

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 25/06/2026 16:48

Just a FYI, I replied to LeedsET on the data breach earlier today. I confirmed to them that I had indeed deleted from my data storage devices all electronic versions of the messages containing other people's data, but my complaint (because it is now that) was their handling of MY data. My formality level went from "best regards" to "yours sincerely". Grin

No reply/acknowlegement as yet.

SqueakyDinosaur · 25/06/2026 16:51

That Laura Brown blog piece is like a bingo card for the blue-haired brigade! I think it deploys pretty much every weapon in the trans allies' arsenal.

anyolddinosaur · 25/06/2026 16:56

Best to ignore Laura Brown, I think. I'd missed hearing about/from her before and wish I had kept it that way. She certainly has mental health problems and maybe if she is denied the attention she craves she'll decide to get the help she needs.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 25/06/2026 16:59

I'm beginning to think 'inclusive' = 'we'll back up abusive men's attempt to coercively control anyone who doesn't agree with them'

The levels of delusion and entitlement are off the charts. Just imagine working with someone who won't let you talk about basic science that - in some circumstances - MUST be relevant to the work of Defra.

You can't understand the environment, the production of food or rural affairs if you don't understand the fact that all mammals have two sexes. You just can't. Mammals having two sexes is absolutely critical to the understanding of dairy and meat industries for a start. Mind fucking boggling.

SqueakyDinosaur · 25/06/2026 17:03

It's funny how each tribunal takes on a character of its own, after you've followed a couple. The judge here does seem to be quite grumpy - justifiably so in the case of all the bundle balls-ups, and the pussyfooting around pronouns was ridiculous - I'll be fascinated to see how NC deals with that.

But he's also been more interventionist than others - almost joining in the questioning on the witness statement, summarising and clarifying some of ST's views in a way that suggests he can't quite believe his ears.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 25/06/2026 17:08

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 25/06/2026 16:59

I'm beginning to think 'inclusive' = 'we'll back up abusive men's attempt to coercively control anyone who doesn't agree with them'

The levels of delusion and entitlement are off the charts. Just imagine working with someone who won't let you talk about basic science that - in some circumstances - MUST be relevant to the work of Defra.

You can't understand the environment, the production of food or rural affairs if you don't understand the fact that all mammals have two sexes. You just can't. Mammals having two sexes is absolutely critical to the understanding of dairy and meat industries for a start. Mind fucking boggling.

The levels of delusion and entitlement are off the charts. Just imagine working with someone who won't let you talk about basic science that - in some circumstances - MUST be relevant to the work of Defra.

Remember that this is also from within a company that is falling over itself to prove its inclusivity credentials.

Is / was DEFRA part of one of Stonewalls programs?

anyolddinosaur · 25/06/2026 17:09

This judge is retired - but you can continue to sit in retirement if the Lord Chancellor agrees and he clearly has. So he draws his pension (a generous scheme apparently) and maybe £750 a day. Maybe its too hot for him.

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