Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 16

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14

Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

To Come

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

Thank you, no offence taken

Where does everyone stand on Jaffa Cakes?
(When I was at university, the mark of a good maths society was having real Jaffa Cakes, not Sainsbury's imitation ones.)

@Helen8220, I don't wish to engage in a pointless argument about India Willoughby, but India self-describes as a 'cis woman' not a 'trans woman'.

I’m sure we’re all terribly grateful that you came on the thread to put us straight.

I feel I should be transparent and be clear it was me that reported it.

Oh dear 😂

Like a playground bully who cannot resist bragging about what they’ve done.

It’s all very neh ne neh ne neh neh 😂

Anyway back to Allison and the case.

Just watched Wine with Women, with the Helens [Staniland and Joyce] and if you haven't watched it, it really is an hour worth watching. Joyce is so inciteful and the last 10 mins really are quite the eye opener.

I'm really looking forward to watching this tonight with my support stir-fry.

Thanks for the heads-up.

India also claims to have a cervix - not sure where that was acquired, possibly on ebay or something, maybe it is carried around in India's handbag...

Overall, I would say India's grasp on reality is tentative.

No worries, ESViper. I just didn't want this interesting thread to be derailed when that topic can be discussed elsewhere. Revenons a nos support moutons.🐑🐑🐑

I prefer the M&S ones (they have different flavours).

Thanks all for the many threads, just caught up.
I was thinking about the judge, if I was having to frantically write everything down I wouldn’t be able to take in what everyone was saying. I know the judge did seem to be able to but surely recording it or having someone else write it down so she could sit back and absorb it all would have been much better.
Is that the usual way judges run things?

God I am exhausted today. So much so that up until about ten minutes ago I honestly thought it was Saturday.

I came out of the working world in 2008 and when I left it, things were still not great for women, especially in the fields that are historically male industries. But things were still going upwards. It

I could see a point were within a generation, more specifically the generation that were the offspring of my generation, the generation that was then going into work had seen the struggles of their parent's generation and would ensure the continuation of feminism, that things would finally be good!

For the years since quite honestly not working, ill and with quite frankly enough of my own shit to sort I wasn't paying too much attention to what was happening.

When I did get chance to notice again things had turned to.....THIS!

I've followed this tribunal with such sorrow inside me, alongside a healthy dose of ever-growing anger!

It is so so nice to see I am not alone!

India also claims to have a cervix - not sure where that was acquired

Golf sale?

I haven’t had a proper Jaffa cake in years, only gluten free approximations, which are pretty disappointing.

And who was making notes for BC? Did he have a junior somewhere?

This

That’s interesting, I hadn’t heard that. I can’t see how that is compatible with any generally recognised meaning of ‘cis gender’.

Though to be fair India has said a lot of things I don’t agree with.

DH is genuinely an ally, but no he doesn't get the nuances, because he's a Man. No skin in the game

DD is Bi, and sort of gets it, but is at a wokier than woke Uni, and has friends who are trans and so oscilates between calling me a Terf (I shut that down pronto - you live in my house you are polite to me!)

And occasionally something happens and she peaks, and agrees with me.

I hope age will bring wisdom to her.

DS is beyond woke, and won't even talk to me any more. He is a straight male, but an academic at a v v v woke Uni 🙄

Actually I just felt a bit guilty and disingenuous that she thanked me for telling her which tweet it was, and clearly didn’t realise the reason I knew was because I had reported it.

i’m about as far from a bully as you can imagine.

Twirls into room. New name in honour of the omnishambles that we've just witnessed.

Judges usually take down a note of the key evidence as they hear it. Even if the hearing is recorded, it’s about picking out what they consider important (and can always go back and check details against the recording if necessary).

I love how all the best Mumsnet threads descend into favourite biscuits.

I make my own Jaffa Cakes (Liam from the Bake Off's receipe). They are very, very nice, particularly when the chocolate is still gooey.

The fact that the judge and tribunal members could just pay attention and not have to be making verbatim notes all the time is one of the arguments put forward by Open Justice (links upthread) to have recordings and transcripts available. We were so nearly there, and pilots had been run successfully (again, links upthread).

We need live streaming, recordings, transcripts, and access to bundles. It is long past time that such essential institutions started to correct these power asymmetries.

OT: I declare myself a fan of Borders Chocolate & Ginger or Chocolate & Orange. I will entertain submissions on other flavours if accompanied by samples.

Dear Garden Court Chambers, (except Allison)

Hey Guys, evening, hope it’s not too late, what with it being nearly 8 pm on a Friday evening and what with the Jubilee coming, and I know some of you will be busy doing…. Stuffff.

Should I write this an official complaint or just a quick hey guys WTF?

It’s a hard choice having gotten intimately acquainted with the finer points of your complaints procedure recently.

I get from that you’ll probably infer that I’ve read the details of your actual complaints procedure. I have to say though…

Why? Why would you think that?

I mean that is the most obvious logical conclusion that an intelligent person, especially a chamber full of legal bods would jump to.

However, I took a leaf out of your books and read a few tweets about a case you’re currently involved with. I was VERY careful not to check any of the replies, good tip!!!,

Oh and listened to a couple of your current and ex staff talk at great great length, with much mangling of the language I know as English, and not a lot of fine detail all about how you consider your complaints procedure to work.

Yeah! Not going to go there! I’m sure you’ve got the picture by now, and most certainly what happens when you annoy the many many versions of Allison that are out here in the world.

So just a quick suggestion before I go. Do better!

Regards Boiled.