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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
NothingOnTellyAgain · 21/09/2018 18:04

OK so they have definitely been giving GG advice on safeguarding

And their primary interest and expert area remains what it has been for years, since before they started IDing as female, i.e. they are one of (as I understand it) the UKs LEADING experts advocating and pushing for the legalisation of a range of currently illegal pornography.

Yes that seems like an awesome fit.

What wil getting the "Anti Censorship Activist" badge that Faye designs involve the girls doing, I wonder.

Ereshkigal · 21/09/2018 18:08

Jane Fae wrote a thing once saying that Jane didn't believe parents should be able to control or monitor their minor children's internet use. It's a privacy issue.

SwiftNC · 21/09/2018 18:22

That'll be a requirement for the new online activism badge - all activities must be done without knowledge or oversight from parents. Develop the skills necessary to avoid detection of online activities - badge earned👍

JellySlice · 21/09/2018 21:06

From that chief exec job ad: While Girlguiding’s young members may be female only, our staff team is mixed gender.

So are they saying that transwomen are female? The whole point, surely, of TW rhetoric is that you don't need to be female to be a woman, that sex is irrelevant to whether you are a man or a woman. So, by GGUK's own words, they should be excluding TGs from their young membership, including TBs in their young membership, but allowing all sexes and gender-expressions in their staff tram.

But we shouldn't expect rationality from trans ideologues or their handmaidens.Hmm

pombear · 21/09/2018 21:14

From that chief exec job ad: While Girlguiding’s young members may be female only, our staff team is mixed gender.

If this is an accurate statement from the JD, it shows just how fucked up and confused many organisations are right now.

Girl Guiding:
Female = what do you define this as?
Gender = what do you definte this as?

Surely you can't mix and match (rhetorical question, everyone is, to the detriment of women and girls).

And yes, many of us remember that HoC panel 'advising' GG that included Jane Fae and Pips Bunce. Two middle-to-late-age males who have defined themselves as women, either 'full-time' or 'part-time' advising GirlGuiding.

Both Jane Fae and Phil have daughters.

JellySlice · 21/09/2018 21:30

Both Jane Fae and Phil have daughters.

So?

Read the MNers who are children of narcissists...

OldCrone · 21/09/2018 21:40

Anyone got a link to the article they wrote explaining how awesome pornography that includes stuff like causing permanent or serious harm to someone is, why it is totally normal to watch it, and why it should be legal?

This one?
www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/29/extreme_vigilantes/

Just when you thought it was safe to dip your toe back in the waters of internet smut, along comes a bunch of vigilantes who could be about to make life a great deal more worrying.

Just the sort of person you want working with the girl guides.

OldCrone · 21/09/2018 21:48

Or this one?
www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/26/pr0n_ban_date/

Sixty-one days and counting: if your stash contains any material that is or may fall foul of the Government’s new laws on extreme porn, then that is how long you have left to destroy it or otherwise get rid of it.

Sections 62 to 67 of the Criminal Justice Act 2008, passed in May of this year, make it a criminal offence punishable by up to three years in prison to possess material that is both pornographic and extreme.

"Pornographic" is defined as being produced for the purposes of sexual arousal. "Extreme" includes acts which threaten a person’s life, results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to a person’s anus, breasts or genitals, involves sexual interference with a human corpse, or sex with an animal (dead or alive).

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 10:17

No I don't think it was either of those.

the second one in particular is off the mark - they are arguing that set up / mocks ups of the illegal things will come under fire and friendly goth hobbyists will be caught out.

the article I read iterated the same list and then just goes on to talk about censorship.

they also write in a way that strongly suggests that this is material they enjoy themselves.

If I remember correctly.
I can't find it on google now.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 10:25

this one

I'll read it again in a bit mayve after breakfast.

Here's the thread - it was around Jane's comments abtou DV and how men kill women due to DV "gone wrong" because they have silly "eggshell skulls". Just asking to be smashed.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3205176-dv-gone-wrong?pg=2

This person is a RANK MISOGYNIST and the idea (that seems to be a FACT given the non denials) that they are ADVISING GIRL GUIDES is repulsive.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 10:26

Jane as expert witness in teh defence in that case a few years back where a bloke wrote a story and published it online about his rape and murder fantasies about the women in girls aloud

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jul/01/obscenity-law-darryn-walker

OldCrone · 22/09/2018 10:27

I can't find it on google now.

I think I saw the one you're talking about, but I couldn't find it either. I think it was in a mainstream newspaper - probably the guardian. I suspect it's disappeared into the memory hole...

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 10:31

Whether you think that case was reasonable to prosecute or not isn;t thepoint here -

the point is that someone who it seems is being consulted by GG on policy presuably includaing / or that will definitely imapct safeguarding of girls

is most well known for being one of a handful of teh UKs leading experts in the area of advocating for ^^ legalisation of extreme porn & etc

And as mentioned are a massive misogynist.

Are girls skulls even more "egg like" and just really smashable than women's ones, I wonder.

Maybe GG can ask.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 10:37

There are 4 links on the thread I just liinked including a guardian one jane did about a consensual slavery court case they were involved in.

Their interests are BDSM, removing barriers to any and all practies and also to improve the ability for people who practice to be able to "express themselves" at work and in public.

This is a part of ID politics obviosuly >> Darren rckign up to work in a gimp suit with the bum cut out, a cock cage, adn an inflatabel rubber mask is to be appluaded as he's bringing his truest, most authentic self to work.

So much of this is about sex. Jane's primary preoccupation, that they have made a life's work out of, is sex, specifcally BDSM, and why it all needs to be more "accepted", more public, and lets's legalise extreme porn.

This push to bring sex much more into the public sphere rather than "consenting in private" as at the moment is essentially about exhibitionism, and of course in public there are people arounnd who most beleive should not be exposed to stuff not least because it leads to tricky situations in waitrose: "Mummy, why has that man near the cereals got spikes in his willy? Why are those ladies only wearing knickers and crawling around on leads?" etc etc

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 10:40

GIRLS GUIDES ARE YOU READING THIS DO YOU EVEN GIVE A FUCK?

IF NOT THE EXTREME PORN
THEN WHAT ABOUT WOMEN BEING MURDERED AS "DV GONE WRONG" BECAUSE HOW WAS HE TO KNOW SHE HAD AN "EGGSHELL SKULL"

THIS IS A MISOGYNIST WITH A KEEN INTEREST IN NICHE SEXUAL PRACTICES (GIMP SUITS ON THE HIGH STREET) AND THE LEGALISATION OF EXTREME PORN.

averylongtimeago · 22/09/2018 10:47

They have been asked, by email, letter and repeatedly on Twitter.
They won't respond.
Leaders who try to talk about this are put "under investigation".

This is not coming from the "grassroots" of the organisation but from the top down.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/09/2018 10:49

So much of this is about sex. Jane's primary preoccupation, that they have made a life's work out of, is sex, specifcally BDSM, and why it all needs to be more "accepted", more public, and lets's legalise extreme porn

Like I said in the dedicated thread I started I am beginning to think that an awful lot of all of this is about porn and men's access to porn.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 10:57

Well with GG it's about access to Girls.

Whether for reasons of "validation" or otherwise -

Of course it's a massive safeguarding issue.

IF GG hire someone with a cock and a pervy streak a mile wide as CEO, I am going to have to rethink whether my girls can go. Ditto a person with a cock who is an upfront misognist ie "I'm a little teapot" person.

The people on the ground are lovely - they are women, women who care about girls, who see them as people, many are gender non conforming, I believe that there is a high % of lesbians. This will all go. Women who care about girls are a different ballgame to penis people who are misogynists and think girl/woman is a dress-up game, a skin, who see us as characatures, not actual people. Obviosuly it will change the org with a man in charge who sees girls not as people but as props, as 2D stereotypes that he likes to dress up as and bat eyelids and so on.

The link to Jane is inexcusable. Their interests are public record. These are their expert areas FFS a lifelong interest, they write about it.

ChattyLion · 22/09/2018 11:10

Sorry if I have missed this but who is the new Chief Executive of Girl Guides Uk going to be now that CEO Julie Bentley has left? Or has she not gone yet?
Are the Trustees going to fulfil their job titles and put a stop to the deliberate undermining of safeguarding at GGUK and the trashing of its legal charitable aims which are to benefit women and girls?

Or was this not coming from the Executive and was it coming from the Trustees of GGUK all along? Sad

FeministPumpkin · 22/09/2018 11:14

OMG I did not know that about Jane Faye.

Creepy as fuck. Should not be within a mile of girl guides!!!!!

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 11:22

They are advertising at the moment, the job as was posted upthread.

Expect a "sex positive" pro prostitution pro porn advocate, who knows nothing about safeguarding, has some peculiar ideas about little girls and women, dislikes women and girls asserting their boundaries, is under the "trans unbrella" and has a cock.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 11:27

www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/jobs-at-girlguiding/vacancies/chief-executive/

closed last week so they will be going through the applications

"Girlguiding values the differences that a diverse workforce brings and is committed to inclusivity, and to employing and supporting a diverse workforce. Girlguiding is proud to be part of the Stonewall Diversity Champions programme, a member of the Business Disability Forum, and a member of Time to Change – improving attitudes towards mental health. While Girlguiding’s young members may be female only, our staff team is mixed gender. We welcome applicants from all backgrounds and do not discriminate on the basis of age, disability (physical or mental), gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion and belief, sex, and sexual orientation."

Early mention of stonewall shows what they are after.

Note they put sex and sexual orientation last >>>

They are sick of the old style guide types > women who may be a bit fucking dykey and exclusionary to certain types of lesbian.

They put age disability and gender reassignment first.

Maybe that transwoman who identifies as paraplegic but is actually not?

They might be good.

Or Travis thingy? He is non binary and also knows quite a bit about girls as he makes shops let him into their changing rooms with them, favourite is top shop. His best friend describes little girls as "kinky". Maybe a jobshare with the extreme porn persona and the I'm a little teapot person?

averylongtimeago · 22/09/2018 11:28

Julia Bentley resigned in April, her role has been filled by her deputy Ruth Marvel

www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/farewell-to-chief-executive-julie-bentley/

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 11:32

"A snapshot of girls’ and young women’s lives over the past ten years
Since 2009 we’ve been giving girls and young women a platform to speak out on the issues that matter to them. We do this every year through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, our flagship research asking girls and young women how they feel about their everyday lives.

Now in its tenth anniversary year, we’re asking the same questions we’ve posed over the past decade (as well as a few new ones too). The results paint a picture of how girls’ lives, hopes and challenges have changed in the past ten years. And they help us focus on the bigger picture: changing society so girls and young women can make a difference and be their best."

What is the point of doing surveys like this any more?
How did they decide who to survey? They define girl as "anyone who identifies as a girl". Did they check each respondent felt "like a girl" inside? How many penis people were included? For D&I, given their definition of "girl", they should be checking that they have surveyed a wide variety of girls and all have their views represented. Did they do this? If not why not?

etc etc

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/09/2018 11:33

"Over her tenure, Julie has overseen a wide-scale modernisation programme including a major review of governance and organisational structures, developing the charity’s first five-year strategic plan, and modernising the guiding offer to meet the needs of girls today."

Adding urinals, presumably.