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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
BlackeyedSusan · 06/08/2018 22:51

I am also confirming that sexual abuse can take place in public places.

Also that teenage boys use sexual comments to intimidate girls.

silentcrow · 06/08/2018 22:59

The "don't ask don't tell" and "just give them condoms" positions are mutually exclusive, surely? I mean, picture this:

Leader: Jane, you'll be sharing with Mary. Take these. hands over condoms

Jane: Why do I need these?

Leader: Can't tell you.

Or am I missing something?

Mossandclover · 06/08/2018 23:07

Doesn’t habituation girls to sleeping alongside and undressing in front of boys put them at increased risk in future? But risk of assault or other sexual activity aside, one of the advantages of an all female environment is the ability to talk in hushed tones about embarrassing girl things (I mean embarrassing to a 10-14 year old - periods etc should be embarrassing). That dynamic is completely gone with a male bodied person present.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 06/08/2018 23:09

Imagine, at some point in the future, that the worst DOES actually happen

What the fuck, what the FUCK are we reduced to, when we have to make this kind of argument?

(I'm not saying you were actually making it sociopathsunited, I'm just hanging what I am saying on your post).

What the hell is wrong with the world when we are staring at a situation where the ONLY THING that will make an organisation like the Guides see what's happening is if a young girl is raped?

ChattyLion · 06/08/2018 23:45

This page gives links to where to complain about any charity if you have concerns:
www.gov.uk/complain-about-charity

This press release says charities will be under scrutiny around safeguarding- www.gov.uk/government/news/safeguarding-is-a-key-governance-priority-for-all-charities-says-charity-regulator

Eg Charities working with vulnerable groups such as children and adults at risk for example, will need to ensure their safeguarding policies and practices comply with relevant safeguarding legislation and regulations.

Not a lawyer, but I just can’t see how GGUK will be able to make the case to the charity Commission that their policy means that they are appropriately safeguarding female children.

JellySlice · 06/08/2018 23:48

Leader: Jane, you'll be sharing with Mary. Take these. hands over condoms
*
Jane: Why do I need these?

Leader:* In case you have lesbian sex.

Confused
AppleKatie · 07/08/2018 08:06

The majority of girls I took to camp this year were 12.

12! I couldn’t look them or their parents in the face if I was routinely giving them condoms for tent sharing.

It’s not going to happen!

sociopathsunited · 07/08/2018 08:37

beautiful dog no offence taken - you actually took a perspective I had meant to convey. Why do I believe it will take a situation that all normal civilised people will condemn as hotrrufic to get GG to change their policies? Because that's what GG are telling us. " It won't happen. Don't be silly. How dare you ask that?". They're saying it needs to happen before action to prevent it will be taken.

sociopathsunited · 07/08/2018 08:37

Horrific. That word was meant to be "horrific"

Happityhap · 07/08/2018 22:17

Leaders are volunteers. Volunteers are very difficult to recruit in general. Who's going to volunteer, or continue to stay, under these conditions?

Some lovely, public-spirited transwomen maybe?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 08/08/2018 00:07

If there is any suggestion of handing out condoms when transgirls share with Xx girls then that is an admission that transgirls are in fact not girls like the rest, and that normal safeguarding rules should apply (i.e segregate by sex), surely?

NotMeOhNo · 08/08/2018 00:25

Next will be a policy telling girls it's not inclusive to talk about their biology just in case someone is a trans girl "and they don't disclose".

drspouse · 08/08/2018 09:26

I did wonder what we were supposed to do with the Period Poverty badge if we have a boy who identifies as a girl in the unit.

Happityhap · 09/08/2018 10:30

Would the condoms be given to the transgirls, just in case they feel like having a girly romantic interlude?
Or to the non-trans girls, in case their tent mate wants to involve them in something they didn't expect?
Or to everyone, every time, just in case of whatever??

How can GG be confident that any condom use will be with full consent of all parties (including other tent mates)?

I have written to GG and await their reply.
I suggest everyone who can, should do this, especially if you are a parent or grandparent of a child who is a member of any stage of Girlguiding, or a child who may want to join.

drspouse · 09/08/2018 10:58

The normal rule on condoms (and YES this is a long standing rule) is they can be in the first aid kit and we can hand them out to anyone over 13 (so, typically this would mean a Guide on a joint camp but I'm envisaging for example a 15yo young leader who has the hots for a 16 year old activity assistant on a Guide-only camp). Parents must be aware they are held and must be OK in principle with them being given out (typically you list all the remedies available in your armoury, ranging from "antihistamine cream" to "a hug" and parents tick which ones they are OK with).

Because Guides is (cough) girl-only and we wouldn't have leadership responsibility for any boys (cough) we would typically be giving them to a girl who comes and says "you know Captain I'm wondering if I can look in your first aid kit because there's that really good looking Scout over on the Scout field".
So in your imagined scenario, it would be both.

drspouse · 09/08/2018 11:14

And honestly, in a "traditional" scenario with a group of Guides on a joint Guide/Scout camp you cannot be sure that the Guide is fully aware of consent, you couldn't realistically prevent them from using a common tent during the afternoon when others are out at activities etc. but might stumble on them.

If the Guide's parents had ticked NO to condoms but the Guide asks for them then this may well be a scenario in which it's necessary to breach a girl's confidentiality immediately. Obviously we cannot promise confidentiality (except in the mad case where we are told to keep a child's trans status confidential!) but if a 14yo and a 15yo have (you think) consensual sex and the parents knows they have access to condoms and has given permission for them to take one, I'm guessing (having never come across this before!) that the procedure would be to talk to the Guide in the relationship before giving them condoms and then encourage them to tell their parents they availed themselves of the condoms their parents said they could have.

NOTE: Leaders are never supposed to be 1:1 with a girl.
So all of these conversations should be taking place with another girl or another leader present.
But I've been in scenarios where a girl is telling me something she doesn't want broadcast (more likely for younger girls, that she's wet her pants!) at one end of a room in a quiet voice while other leaders and girls are present at the other end of the room. I can remember handing a girl clean trousers in a full meeting hall, but discreetly so she could walk to the loo and nobody would see, then washing the original ones out and putting them on a radiator. One nosy girl asked why and I told her "none of your business". So nobody else officially knew, though none of this was "in private".

Again, on camp, you walk around with a group of girls, but one may fall back and tell you something. You wouldn't promise to keep it secret but she's only told you.

So, though I'm not likely to be in this situation, if I was taking girls over 13 on a camp where I was suspicious there might be a boy who identifies as a girl, I'd be following the procedures for a joint camp, and telling parents why.

Happityhap · 09/08/2018 14:52

I have written to GG and await their reply
I didn't write to them specifically about condoms, btw, but about safeguarding of girls.

Thanks for that info, drspouse.
All of that assumes that a girl will be aware that she wants to have sex with a boy.

Of course, the girl requesting the condom might be the one with the penis, unbeknown to her prospective partner.
Surely I'm not nuts to think that could happen.

Happityhap · 09/08/2018 14:55

on a camp where I was suspicious there might be a boy who identifies as a girl

Wouldn't that be every camp, then?

AppleKatie · 09/08/2018 16:01

"you know Captain I'm wondering if I can look in your first aid kit because there's that really good looking Scout over on the Scout field"

Said no girl in real life ever!

SturdyEarmuffs · 09/08/2018 16:05

Just thought I'd add these links to help illustrate the problem that Agnes is trying to get addressed, seeing as the thread is very long...

This link https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/events-and-going-away/going-on-residentials/

Is where you'll find GG policy on male volunteers and male children & accommodation on residential trips which states "If male volunteers or male children are present, there must be separate sleeping and bathroom facilities for them."

This link https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

Is where you'll find GG's policy on transgender members - note the quote given by a volunteer "All they want to do is 'be'. They aren't sexual predators or con artists; they are simply children. - Girlguiding volunteer leader".

You can apply the same logic to the male children referenced in the policy that says that there should be separate bathroom & sleeping facilities for them - they aren't sexual predators either, they're children too. But GG still separate them from the female children. Why? What's the difference between a male child & a male child who identifies as a girl?

🤷🏻‍♀️

drspouse · 09/08/2018 21:38

Happity well not if I'm running it!

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 28/08/2018 19:18

Something has prompted Girl Guiding to respond (minimally but still) to concerned tweeters. twitter.com/victoriapeckham/status/1033756653181706242?s=21 and scroll down a bit.

Perhaps alarm bells are finally starting to ring?

No idea why now suddenly ...

LadybirdsAreBirds · 28/08/2018 19:20

Thanks for bumping this

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 28/08/2018 19:22

https://twitter.com/girlguiding/status/1034459560008925185?s=21

Sorry, am still rubbish at navigating twitter. That's the relevant part of its thread

R0wantrees · 28/08/2018 20:54

Firplay for Women articles and resources about Girl Guides:

fairplayforwomen.com/sisterstoallguides/

Current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348337-Girl-Guides-safeguarding