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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 22:56

Co-authored by Gendered Intelligence ShockHmm

Heaven forbid a gender resource pack is delivered in association with a feminist group, for an audience comprising of (mostly) girls and young women.

OP posts:
Moonflower12 · 22/07/2018 22:57

Sending you Thanks
Well done for speaking out. GG is supposed to provide a safe female space to help girls reach their full potential.

I have left recently after 20 years due to other reasons but I fully applaud you on your stance.

ChattyLion · 22/07/2018 23:01

Agnes Flowers thank you for keeping on. This is so important. Thank you.

seafret · 22/07/2018 23:02

Flowers Agnes you are so courgeous. It is apalling that you have been ostracised when you care so much about the girls in your charge.

Take heart that you are doing your best for them.

Voice0fReason · 22/07/2018 23:11

GG have brought themselves into disrepute with this ridiculous policy.
They need people like you putting the girls' welfare first.
Thank you for the update. I hope they see sense.

LangCleg · 22/07/2018 23:13

More Flowers from me, Agnes. I don't even know what I can say - what the fuck is there to say that isn't flaming obvious? - other than I think you are courageous and wonderful.

goodthinking99 · 22/07/2018 23:15

Agnes your heartfelt desire to do the best for your Rainbows is admirable, it is a very strange place we are all in at the moment. My DD is in the brownies and I'm glad that you are trying to shed light on this conundrum. It will be a sad day if the GirlGuides lose you but please don't let this grind you down. Have ThanksCakeBrew and take heart that many are reading, listening and thinking.

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 23:17

I'm not at all brave or courageous. I'm completely normal! I'm bloody terrified that something awful will happen. I'm also lucky that my work (in risk management in a science based sector) means I'm unlikely to lose my job or be singled out.

OP posts:
Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 22/07/2018 23:20

Brought the Girl Guides into disrepute Hmm. How fucking surreal is that?
Flowers. I’m absolutely raging for you

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 22/07/2018 23:20

Agnes thank you from me - this is so important. Honestly, being under investigation for pointing out safeguarding failures is absolutely chilling (I know they might say you're under investigation for something else, but this is the real reason, isn't it - that's how I read the situation anyway).

Do look after yourself. There are so many parents behind you, and even more would be if they knew.

silentcrow · 22/07/2018 23:21

Agnes, thank you for your work and your thoughtfulness. Flowers

I joined the Scouts when I was 16 and I dont think there was any thought given to safeguarding at all. We went on camp and blithely came back with boyfriends, having spent hours snogging in the woods and even tents (it's a miracle we didn't come back with anything else). Are the Scouts still mixed, and how do they handle safeguarding, if so? Is there anything you could draw on from their experience? Actually, do the Boy's and Girl's Brigades still exist, could they help? Or armed forces cadet groups? Surely all these groups must have protocols and not all of them will have been sucked in by GI.

boatyardblues · 22/07/2018 23:25

Honestly, being under investigation for pointing out safeguarding failures is absolutely chilling

^ This x 1000

Storm2018 · 22/07/2018 23:27

What can we do to oppose this ? Will writing to them help?

FourAlarmFire · 22/07/2018 23:35

A couple of questions because I’m genuinely a bit confused! Not trying to be goady, just want to learn more...

  1. What’s the risk with a male-bodied child joining? I thought Rainbows were only little. DS is 6yo and I can’t imagine any harm coming from him having a sleepover with female-bodied children. He often shares a room with his sister although I suppose family is different.
  2. Do Girl Guides have male helpers sometimes? Just wondered how that would play out with the sleepover situation.
RaininSummer · 22/07/2018 23:35

I am so sorry Agnes. Thank you for fighting it. I wrote to the Guides and got an answer iwhich made it clear that they would prioritise transing boys over the safety of girls.

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 23:36

Scouts is still mixed sex. Their guidance on trans issues is at pains to point out that there's never been a rule around segregating accommodation by sex, but in practice I don't know any leaders who don't provide single sex tents etc. And of course, parents and children know scouts is mixed.

Scouts have been working with mermaids but at least their policy includes this statement (my emphasis):

What about nights away, camps and trips?
• Discuss options well in advance with the young person and others involved, whilst protecting the young person’s right to privacy. The principle is to make sure that everyone is comfortable with the arrangements. Be sensitive to the needs of the young person; avoid making them feel singled out or not respected.

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

Boys and girls brigade do exist but are much smaller. I don't know what their stance is on trans issues, or with cadets for that matter.

OP posts:
Train101 · 22/07/2018 23:40

Army cadets it goes by case by case basis and they will consult the individual, the inclusivity team and also other cadets if needed.
The statement I saw read that the safety and comfort of all cadets is a priority

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 23:41

@FourAlarmFire my main concern with rainbows is their privacy and dignity. If a girl has known a child as a boy, it's a lot to process if that child now presents as a girl. Prepubescent children can still be shy about their bodies and if they don't want to change in front of a male, I certainly won't make them.

Leadership roles in Girlguiding are now open to anyone who identifies as a woman. So a person born male, with their male body still intact, could have been sleeping in that same hall next to me and the rainbows.

As I mentioned in my OP, I do not feel safe sleeping next to a male person I don't know very well, however nice they are. Why should girls be expected to?

OP posts:
PositivelyPERF · 22/07/2018 23:42

Only a serious incident of real harm will cause a rethink of the policy I’m afraid I’m not as ‘optimistic* as you. There have been too many cases of children being silenced, after abuse. Do you really think that those in power are going to want it to be public knowledge that a young girl has come to harm, because of their ridiculous TRA appeasement policy? There will be sudden concerns about the girl’s ‘privacy’ and it will be hushed up, all in the name of ‘protecting’ the child, of course. 🙄

Does the ‘speaking out’ badge protect the young girls, when they are brave enough to complain about sharing with males? I very much doubt it. What a bloody joke. ‘Speak out’, but keep quiet about boys sharing your female spaces. It isn’t a coincidence that the GGs are suddenly advertising how ‘progressive’ they are. Funny how there were no ‘transgirls’ in their adverts. Not quite brave enough to advertise that, are you, GGs?

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 23:43

We do have male helpers in Guiding. The rules for people who identify as men are clear. They must have their own sleeping accommodation, separate to the girls and women leaders. This includes male children of leaders who accompany their mothers on trips.

So we have one rule for males who identify as men and one for males who identify as women, even if biologically there is no difference between them.

OP posts:
silentcrow · 22/07/2018 23:59

Thank you for your answers.

Still sounds like it's all about the trans individual's feelings and girls need to put up and shut up, doesn't it.

Angryresister · 23/07/2018 00:01

I didn't even get a reply when I wrote but don't expect to , not being a gg or leader. How are things actually working out for different age groups? Are any incidents recorded I wonder.? Do you get to meet with other leaders at all Agnes? Disgraceful for a girls organisation to be doing this.

boatyardblues · 23/07/2018 00:10

Girl Guiding: If you are reading this thread to collect evidence for your case against Agnes, know this - you are an absolute disgrace. Safeguarding all the children in your organisation should be your number one priority, not hounding a brave whistleblower out of your organisation. When this inevitably blows up, as it will, you only have yourselves to blame for such a stupendous lapse in judgement and good sense.

Datun · 23/07/2018 01:08

FourAlarmFire

The way girl guides adopted the trans policy (by trans lobby groups) means that a male helper could now sleep in with the females.

A 14-year-old boy, fully intact, attracted to girls, could be sleeping in the same tent as 10-14 year-old girls. And, more to the point, the express advice is to not tell parents.

So safeguarding goes out the window. Consent is not only not given, it's not even sought.

agnes

Did I spot that one of the badges was about gender stereotyping? It's an absolute joke. Encouraging them to recognise gender stereotyping, at exactly the same time as rigorously underpinning it.

I rarely use the word thick, but really, in this case...

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 23/07/2018 01:10

Agnes - sending you love and support across the ‘net. You are doing the job you signed up for - supporting young girls. I write as someone who was a brownie/guide and is so disappointed to see the movement abandoning girls and especially girls who for cultural or religious reasons cannot take part in mixed organisations. We are losing our female only organisations left right and centre - it’s a huge disgrace. I never thought I would emotionally turn against the guiding movement, or the WEP, or Labour etc etc and now I feel abandoned by all these organisations. You are a beacon of moral certainty and represent the very best of Guiding. Thank you for being a leader.