Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

[R0wantrees]

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

Venice is very eloquent.

I don't see it as any different. To me this is a concerted push to remove voyeurism and indecent exposure as offences in sex segregated spaces.

Oh I absolutely agree.

This from the grauniad:

Bergdorf argues that trans women experience much violence (from cis men, it is implied) and are not violent towards women. But this is, surely, not the fear? The fear is that it is precisely not trans women who will cause trouble, but the cis men bent on intimidating women who will use the new law as another way to do so.

Is spot on. We're not allowed to talk about men being able to abuse self ID to gain access to changing rooms etc. We get the off-the-cuff response "transwomen are no danger to women" - which is, in itself quite dishonest - because there are transwomen sex offenders serving prison sentences.

But the way the narrative is twisted from "we fear sex offending males may abuse the legislation to gain access to women" to "are you saying transwomen are sex offenders" and "it's just an administrative change, nobody will be able to abuse it" makes me very distrustful of the transactivist narrative we're being fed.

God, sorry for the wall of text. (Well, I did use paragraphs.)

Watching on the +1. It's making me really, really want to attend the next Women's Place meeting! And yes, would love to see what the Gogglebox viewers think of this programme - especially keen to hear from Giles and Mary!

But the way the narrative is twisted from "we fear sex offending males may abuse the legislation to gain access to women" to "are you saying transwomen are sex offenders" and "it's just an administrative change, nobody will be able to abuse it" makes me very distrustful of the transactivist narrative we're being fed.

Yes, exactly.

Transgender identified males argue they are the exception but it seems to me it is a hard sell when nearly half the transgender identified males currently incarcerated are sex offenders.

Are there new pronoun rules here, have MNHQ issued updated guidelines? would someone mind pointing me at them?

Just finished watching on +1. You could see MB itching to talk over Venice Allen!

Watching it now. MB is saying that her plastic surgery is different to other kinds because it is to make her feel more at home in herself rather than being about vanity. I’d argue that that’s why most people have plastic surgery?

@TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld
Yes - iirc if you are not happy to use someone’s preferred pronouns you can use their initials or “they”, but cannot use “he” for a transwoman for example.

I can't believe this thread...someone has posted a news report to show that a transwoman is capable of committing a crime (torture and murder in this case) but people are doing everything they can to ignore the point of the post.
twitter.com/JeanHatchet/status/996811753437712384

Quote from MB from the programme:

I’ve never said that I’m a cisgender woman … I identify more with the female side in a world that gives me two options

So many questions - is 'non-binary' not a thing any more? Do you have to identify with your female side to be a woman? Is the Labour Party officially endorsing the idea that there are only two options?

It may only be 7am but a great big double to Lucy Mangan - it's the first time I've seen her write about this.

I don't think the show will have had the effect MB hoped for.

I think a lot of people will see just how shallow it all is - it's all about the looks & me me me.

I thought it was a lot more balanced than I expected - I thought it was going to be the Thought Police blasting "Trans is Right" into our heads.....

Yes, only women who identify as women can call themselves women, apparently. So start behaving like your gender stereotype!

It's the Tories who are in power and have been looking into the changing the GRA, Labour just gets the press because of all women shortlists. All the main parties support it.

Can someone who was there confirm at what point Munroe left the Bristol meeting please?

In the program last night Munroe says she stayed to listen to the speakers but couldn't face the questions. Is that the case because I had the impression that she'd left earlier?

nearly half the transgender identified males currently incarcerated are sex offenders.

Do you understand stats?

You do know that could mean there are TWO transwomen in jail and ONE of them is a sex offender?

Perhaps half of children currently incarcerated are thieves. Says nothing about how likely children are to steal.

Misleading use of stats. Not cool.

That is correct, they left as soon as the speeches were over....

Has Munroe still got a penis?

&You do know that could mean there are TWO transwomen in jail and ONE of them is a sex offender?&

We know how stats and percentages work cheers, we also know that there are considerably more than 2.

And BTW - "Not cool" - really? Give the keyboard back to mum now.....

There is a great deal of statistical and legal info on the Fairplay for Women website.

fairplayforwomen.com

Has Munroe still got a penis?

It's kind of irrelevant IMO. However much surgery a man has does not make them into a woman.

Watching it now. MB is saying that her plastic surgery is different to other kinds because it is to make her feel more at home in herself rather than being about vanity. I’d argue that that’s why most people have plastic surgery?

It's cos Munroe is speshul innit.

Has Munroe still got a penis?

Although relevant I suppose if forming an opinion on whether MB is dysphoric or AGP.