Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

[R0wantrees]

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

grandplans ooo that is interesting. I read, on a Huffington Post article, that there is evidence to show that transwomen have the same pattern and statistics for crime as men - unfortunately that article didn't link where she found those pieces of evidence though

Private Eye reviewed genderquake and the debate that followed it, how the debate was controlled plus the Peter Kaye unscripted which attracted howls of protest the "More than a woman" part.

They conclude:

.."but the big question - of whether one community should be permitted a veto on media coverage of itself - remains stubbornly unresolved"

p 14, Eye no 1470.

I never understand why a transwoman like Caroline Paige isn’t chosen to front up documentaries like this. She is part of Stonewall so presumably can give the same basic messages rather than being seen as a Miranda Yardley opposer. Paige is a far more convincing role model of womanhood than Bergdorf - brave, a pioneer, openly interested in a wide range of things, hard working and with a media presence which is not focused on looks, not vain. I may not agree with the message - well I don’t - but I sure as hell would listen to someone like her giving it more seriously than I do Bergdorf. There must be so many transwomen like her amidst the selfie-obsessed ones I don’t like the same way I abhor all women who live by the surgeons knife and rate their value by their perceived feminine sexiness.

C4 probably want the controversy of having MB facing it though as will get more notice and pull more viewers?

But it must be quite galling to have done all this work breaking down barriers for years and years only for the glamorous models to hop in and define things - though maybe the riling up of trans issues to the forefront of media etc is welcomed. I don’t really know.

I wouldn’t want a beauty-obsessed, selfie-obsessed natal woman representing what women are either really so perhaps in the end it comes down to taste and our own individual identities, whereever they lie, and whatever our sex.

I just saw on Twitter that Munroe has recently posed for Playboy... that is interesting if they do have a penis...

I never understand why a transwoman like Caroline Paige isn’t chosen to front up documentaries like this.

It’s the programme style - lots of documentaries aimed at young people are about a high profile person going on a personal journey - BBC3 has loads of them.

A transwoman did recently pose for Playboy. I'm not sure who it was, but they had their back to the camera. Comments from Playboy readers on Twitter were not progressive.

Is Munroe Bergdorf high profile though? It seems to me that someone is pushing MB forward for publicity opportunities. It used to be always Paris Lees getting these Glam Trans roles. I cannot stand Lees but PL would have done a much better job at the debate and at last night's programme for the trans side, those of us opposed to this ideology are probably lucky that C4 hired MB not PL.

The issue is the need to recognise women objectively as a group who share common biology.

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't assign virtue points to different trans people. All trans people have their own reason for transitioning, their own story, their own unique experience.

None of that should detract from the issue of ensuring that women as a sex class are protected and not erased.

I cannot stand Lees but PL would have done a much better job at the debate and at last night's programme for the trans side, those of us opposed to this ideology are probably lucky that C4 hired MB not PL.

PL just repeats 'suicide' over and over and uses straw man arguments, but only in a situation where PL isn't going to actually have someone push them to expand on their position.

PL says that they don't take part in debates because they 'won't debate their right to exist' but it's actually because they know that if their argument was dissected they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Admittedly I know nothing about fashion and modelling so to me Bergdorf seems like just another posh shallow socialite type who gets picked for reality tv based on their contacts list and a lack of anything else they can do. Become famous for being pictured at places, with people.

Is Munroe Bergdorf high profile though?

She was awarded one of the top ten online influencers of 2018 by the British LGBT awards.

She also won the disruptor/change-maker of the year award at the Cosmopolitan Influencer awards April 2018.

I think there may have been more...

So I guess she is, if you're into that sort of thing :)

Influencing what and changing what though? What has Munroe actually done apart from identify as trans and spend lots of money on vanity products?

Aren't these awards designed to make something of nothing? An elitist set of randoms using fake awards to pad out them and their kid's CVs?

Munroe certainly hasn't been influencing on body positivity or against stereotypes that's for sure...

She was awarded one of the top ten online influencers of 2018 by the British LGBT awards.
She also won the disruptor/change-maker of the year award at the Cosmopolitan Influencer awards April 2018.

My concern is the extent to which due to the way social media operates that there are many social & demographic groups whose influential power in media and politics is increasingly diminished and whose voices are so much less likely to be heard.

In the context of 'what makes a woman' this seems especially pertinent.

Bergdorf is right up there with Phil Bunce in the awards.

I just caught up on it.

She’s got a penis hasn’t she.

Bergdorf is right up there with Phil Bunce in the awards.

I learned a lot about Philip Bunce yesterday on the thread below and am unsure about his apparent significance with respect The Girl Guides policies.

He definitely seems to be very influential.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3250175-Girl-Guides-Panel-discussion-at-Speakers-house-woman-male-woman-male-male-male

Bergdorf, Bunce, Susie Green, and Playboy. Noone could suggest that this group could be harmful to the goal of women's liberation?! They all seem so nice.

Has anyone seen Elisa Bray's review of this programme in the i? I didn't watch it so have no idea of how far the review represents Munroe Bergdorf's position, but it's very sympathetic towards her.

It contains a few sentences though that struck me as being really bizarre and have left me confused.

According to Elisa Bray: "So uncomfortable was she in the male body in which she was born, that Bergdorf would shave her legs with her mum's razor".

Can anyone unpack this for me? How is feeling the need / desire to shave your legs a sign of being uncomfortable in your male body? Women's legs aren't naturally hairless, and women can have plenty of conspicuous leg hair.

Or is it saying that in some way wanting to rid yourself of body hair is a female thing, and therefore is a sign of Bergdorf's innate female gender? But that would be ridiculous too, as clearly leg shaving is a cultural expectation that women are taught to have. I remember starting to shave my legs after receiving comments about my leg hair from boys at school, and that was the same for several of my friends.

And given that many if not most women still remove their natural leg hair, is that a sign that we're all uncomfortable with our bodies / dysphoric in some way?

As I say, I've no idea if this review is representative of the programme, but to focus on Bergdorf's attitude to leg hair, of all things, seems strange and very superficial. I assumed that body dysphoria involved unhappiness with the appearance of primary and secondary sexual organs, not with something - body hair - that men and women both have, and to which attitudes are entirely culturally determined.

I've just read upthread that Bergdorf has not had 'bottom surgery', which makes me even more baffled as to why leg hair would be upsetting.

The i review also says this:

"It was interesting to see the scientific angle as she headed to a German hospital, where research on transgender brains showed that gender is a spectrum as opposed to binary".

My immediate reaction is that this must be a misrepresentation of the science but I'd be grateful if anyone could tell me what the German hospital research was about. I wasn't aware that there was any scientific evidence that gender identity (as opposed to sex) even exists, let alone how many types of it there might be.

And if research on 'transgender brains' has shown something interesting about gender, how could that, in principle, tell us anything about non transgender people's brains, or about the 'gender spectrum'?

I got the impression that the German researchers were being very careful about what they said and that they were a bit nonplussed about MB's visit.

many if not most women still remove their natural leg hair, is that a sign that we're all uncomfortable with our bodies / dysphoric in some way

Don't be so silly, women who shave are not suffering with dysphria but embracing your femininity....

Seriously though, MB kept saying she realised she was portraying a stereotype of a woman, a social construct, but why does this make her a Woman? And surely this just shows they are needing some guidance and support about how it is okay to not fit into society and we should be breaking these bloomin constructs not reinforcing them!

The brain scan combined with some sort of questionnaire (do you like pink? etc possibly) came up with the result that MB's brain wasn't female. It was transgender. I was also wondering if this means it is dysphoric and how similar other dysphoric brains (eg anorexics) would be on a similar scan.

It was hearing India Willoughby on Woman's Hour last year saying that a woman not shaving her legs was 'dirty' which made me aware of some of these issues. I had to listen again on catch-up to check that I hadn't imagined it. The discussion was about the sexist requirements of dress within the hospitality industry specifically about heeled-shoes..

I found it bizarre and so regressive having not heard such opinions voiced since the early 1980s when I was at school.