Munroe Bergdorf 'What Makes a Woman' Channel 4 16/5

[R0wantrees]

Extract from Radio Times:
www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-05-16/what-makes-a-woman-review-munroe-bergdorf-transgender-activist-debate/

"There are more moments of vulnerability when Bergdorf attends a discussion by a feminist group called We Need To Talk. There’s a real sense of menace in the air as transgender people gather outside to protest the meeting of so-called TERFS – Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists – who believe trans women are not female but are in fact men threatening to infiltrate women’s space.

Bergdorf is extremely articulate in one to one interviews so it’s a shame she doesn’t feel able to stay and debate them, but it’s also understandable – the atmosphere inside the meeting is toxic and she’s surrounded on all sides.

“When we [see] events like this, which directly are designed to deny [transgender women’s] very identities and the fact that we even exist, it’s extremely hurtful and concerning,” she says as she leaves. But she later sits down with one of the organisers, Venice Allan (aka Dr Radfem, just in case you were in any doubt).

They have an interesting debate about female and transgender rights, but it ends tellingly with the good Dr declaring “feminism is about women!” when surely feminism is about equality....

Concludes:
What Makes a Woman provides a valuable grounding in the ins and outs of the transgender debate for those of us who could use it – but it’s also a profile of a intriguing, sensitive, likeable person who is herself still on a journey of discovery."

What Makes a Woman is on tonight, Wednesday 16th May, at 10pm on Channel 4 and available afterwards on All4

You do know that could mean there are TWO transwomen in jail and ONE of them is a sex offender?

Well yes, it could. But it's not the case.

Being trans is not what makes trans women a potential threat. It's being male that does.

I don't see how a man who becomes trans suddenly becomes less of a threat: in fact no threat at all apparently?

It's like debating with 1st year philosophy students. Or 13 year olds. Or socialist student union reps (ohhh many pub debates when we were students with rich boys trying to be 'down with the workers).

Just state your opinion and back it up with facts. Not buzz words and nonsense phrases repeated over and over and OVER again.

It's kind of irrelevant IMO. However much surgery a man has does not make them into a woman

Completely agree. I was just wondering that’s all..

Munroe does have a penis. Which I assume is involved at some point in Munroe's 'lesbian' relationship.

I wonder if contraception is an issue in that relationship, quite unusual for lesbians to have to worry about that stuff if so. I wonder who it is out of Munroe and Munroe's girlfriend who would actually have to carry the burden of an unwanted child if contraception failed?

There have always been loud voices who will push any 'extreme' agenda that is trendy/outrageous in everyone's face at every opportunity. Whether it's race, sex, even fashion - any opinion they don't like is sneered at, shouted down or threatened.

Sadly social media has given a sinister twist to such groups, and they are emboldened to use a louder, more aggressive voice to try to get the rest of the world to fall on line with their views/opinions. A lack of critical thinking, a more open society and seemingly impossible balanced debate fuels this. Plus the sinister backers/manipulators who play their 'useful idiots' like violins.

Why are people so quick to accept rather than question? Following news and agendas on 280 character soundbites, that's why.

As the saying goes, 'we need to talk'.

Can someone educate me please?
I'm not understanding how someone who claims that they have gender dysphoria will prioritise vanity cosmetic surgery over the removal of their genitals? Surely thing that most identifies them as being a man is a penis etc?

Thanks @therealposieparker, while you're here, what is the name of the younger woman who spoke at the Jam Jar? I thought her speech was really moving and very important.

I'm just reading the James Kirkup article & he's picked up some of the points she made blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/

current thread here
[[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3251545-The-Silencing-of-the-Lesbians}}

I assume because they don't have sex dysphoria but instead they have gender dysphoria. They don't like the social role ascribed to men. And it's easier to force women to downgrade their safety and comfort than it is to ask men to be more inclusive in their social role.

I’m sure there are many different reasons why people identify as trans. It’s as pointless to try to classify them as good or bad as it is to classify women or men as good or bad. The issue isn’t relative virtue.

The issue is the need to recognise women objectively as a group who share common biology.

It's true Merrymouse. The stonewall umbrella even includes 'feminine men' and 'masculine women' as trans, which is a bit rude, just going on what people look like.

Ah thanks for that clarity! Still so confused though, surely they would want people to be breaking down gender stereotypes rather than ingraining them deeper?

Being trans is not what makes trans women a potential threat. It's being male that does.

Can we repeat and repeat and repeat the above every time TRAs tell us transwomen are not a threat until someone actually listens! They don't want to hear it. They drown out the voice of anyone who tries to say it.

The stonewall umbrella even includes 'feminine men' and 'masculine women' as trans

Blimey! Does this mean I float in and out of being trans then?

I know right!

Still so confused though, surely they would want people to be breaking down gender stereotypes rather than ingraining them deeper?

I know - it's like when you fall asleep half way through a film and then can't work out what is going on.

So, wait a minute.

He still has a penis but thinks he’s a woman? His programme last night was about what makes a woman bIt he still has a penis? He’s in a lesbian relationship and he still has a penis? Which I’m sure he uses - so, he’s a man?

Brain. Fucked.

nearly half the transgender identified males currently incarcerated are sex offenders.

Do you understand stats?

You do know that could mean there are TWO transwomen in jail and ONE of them is a sex offender?

It doesn't mean that, unless the sex offender was only part sex offender. If it's nearly half then by definition there must far more than two trans offenders.

In fact there are a lot more than two. You can see a breakdown of the stats here.

NotTerfNorCis thanks for that link.

So, it shows 113 UK trans prisoners, with 57 of them sex offenders or the most dangerous category A prisoner.

Rowan

Nicole Jones. She's great

I love Lucy Mangan. So glad to see her write about this. Carol Modgley in the Times is quite good too.

I looked up the stats of female prisoners the other day and came up with 3% out of a population of just over 4,000 UK women prisoners are there for sex-related crime.

However, it's important to note, that figure includes transwomen who are housed in female prisons, not only natal women.

Even if that figure was 100% natal women (which it isn't), I don't understand how anyone can say transwomen aren't a threat to women when you compare 50% to 3%.

There is clearly a difference in behaviour and criminality. Transwomen do not take on female patterns of behaviour just because they ID as a women. Therefore it's quite clear we should treat them -as a group - as a potential threat to the safety of women and children, just as we do ordinary men - as a group.

What is the percentage of male prisoners who are sex offenders, does anyone know?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth Thank you, do you have links to anything that she has written?

grandplans
Have you seen this website? transcrimeuk.com

Being trans is not what makes trans women a potential threat. It's being male that does.

Quite. And there is no evidence or data to show us that transition lessens risk at all. Since single sex spaces are all about managing risk, there is therefore equally no evidence to remove them.

Personally, and I realise it makes people feel uncomfortable when I say it, I think AGP trans people represent an increase risk. Because fragile identity that relies on continual outside validation + narcissistic rage when that validation is not forthcoming = a pretty clear increased risk factor. These people get aggressive enough on social media when validation is not forthcoming - who would want that aggression coming their way in any physical space, let alone one that is supposed to be a place of safety for women?