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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

T

999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:35

13 women are killed in Brazil every day and that's just the ones who are known to have been murdered. Mostly by men, obviously.

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 00:35

Poor TED 2 was determined to be the infiltrator.

BudgieInABeret · 07/04/2018 00:35

Thebewilderness Exactly

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:36

Hopefully the OP linked to this thread on twitter when they were describing all the virtual literal violence we dished out today, perhaps all the intelligent debate they actually find will peak trans a few more.

They did.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 00:37

RIP, Ted, you'll be missed!

PrivatePie · 07/04/2018 00:39

They have very few followers but seems to be using this thread to get attention from very active TRAs and trying to link up with them.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:40

twitter.com/Donna_Beeeee/status/982360338006978562?s=20

Some other TIM is claiming the CPS have decided against prosecuting someone (Posie?) and TERFs will think of it as an "open season", apparently. Our dear OP is thinking that means us.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:41

They have very few followers but seems to be using this thread to get attention from very active TRAs and trying to link up with them.

Yes, exactly.

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 00:46

The argument from men that they have been "living as a woman" by using the women's toilets and the women didn't notice or mind is reminiscent of the men whose wives divorce them "right out of the blue with never a hint of a problem".

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:48

whose wives divorce them "right out of the blue with never a hint of a problem".

To be fair that probably applies to most of them too.

PrivatePie · 07/04/2018 00:50

Apart from using women’s toilets what does "living as a woman" mean, I'd really love to know.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:52

I bought myself some flowers today. I think that means I'm womaning correctly.

PrivatePie · 07/04/2018 00:53

I got sad so I cuddled a cat.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:56

Us crazy wimz eh!

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 00:57

From what I read in the court case and from what transgender advocates have said it seems that really is about the only criteria. That they tell people, family and friends, that they are transgender and that they use the women's loo. Paperwork of course if they need to use ID for various things.

Terftastic · 07/04/2018 01:01

I saw a post a while back by Jane Fae a while back - complaining to a parcel delivery company. Jane tweeted about "being a woman living alone, and feeling vulnerable".

Other trans widows talk of their husband's wanting to be submissive sexually after transition.

They're rejecting toxic masculinity. Which is fine by me - but it doesn't make them female.

Woman is not a costume men can put on because they don't like prescribed masculinity.

Terftastic · 07/04/2018 01:02

They're bullying women because they can't bully the men - and they're probably pleasantly surprised to find that loads of men, including lefty dude bros) are more than willing to join in with them.

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 01:04

The ancient argument of that creep Aristotle that women are failed men, and failed men are women.
Zombie lies.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 01:05

Failed men think they have the option to kick women into a third place, a subclass. That is what I see on social media.

PrivatePie · 07/04/2018 01:06

Seriously? Using the women's loos is an expectation? I shouldn't be surprised, 'living as a woman' is such a ridiculous notion that the options are minimal.

It's been said many times before, but surely things like taking a pay cut, being spoken over by men and getting taxis at night would be nearer to 'living as a woman'.

Terftastic · 07/04/2018 01:08

Yes, that's the same Jane Fae who tweeted that most DV was "accidental, a punch to an eggshell skull" - a tall, well built man prior to transition (in his 50s?). Successful journalist.

Re-styling as a "vulnerable woman." It's utter bullshit.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 01:15

Well I told the OP at about 8.30 this morning that we would take this thread to 1k if the OP wanted that. Looks like I was pretty much right :)

Terftastic

Yes Jane Fae is about 6'3"

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1252462/Andrea-Fletcher-devoted-fiancee-whos-sticking-man-John-Ozimek-despite-fact-wants-woman-named-Jane-Fae.html

Vickxy · 07/04/2018 01:18

OK own up. Who has been prodding needles into the faces of posters tonight? HQ said we had to stop that, we are getting a reputation.

Terftastic · 07/04/2018 01:26

Vickxy Grin

PrivatePie · 07/04/2018 01:27

When Jane Fae 'lived as a man' they campaigned against obscenity laws, right? And now they're a submissive vulnerable woman scared of the delivery man.