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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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T

999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
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AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 06/04/2018 23:41

Seriously? The Ted posts were deleted? Bizarre.

I'm not even pissed.

Time out for me I think.

(...Wonders if Ted is on Netflix)

SimonBridges · 06/04/2018 23:42

What abuse?

We agreed that we need to keep ‘chancers’ out of the women’s spaces.

I think that coming here, telling us women we are wrong and that our life experience is invalid is abuse.
I also object to the op wafting in all sweetness and light faking that they don’t understand any of this, like the cotton ceiling, when a quick look at their twitter feed shows that they do.

GoodyMog · 06/04/2018 23:43

Private Of course, why am I not surprised? It's a hard life having people disagree with you and use logic and facts to explain why. Very traumatic.

SimonBridges · 06/04/2018 23:44

I have a genuine question for the op, should she ever return.
Op, you say that you have been living as a woman for a number of years. What does that mean for you? How is your day to day life different as a woman to a man?

AngryAttackKittens · 06/04/2018 23:45

People saying they think you're wrong is "abuse", OP? Better avoid Twitter then, it's a lot nastier than Mumsnet.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 06/04/2018 23:46

Don't think she's coming back, what with all the literal violence she's experienced from mumsnet today

twitter.com/Donna_Beeeee/status/982367809605955584

TERFragetteCity · 06/04/2018 23:47

The OP has posted on Twitter, on a thread about the murder of a trans woman in Brazil, that because of this thread they have been "hated at least 500 times on MN today" and they're recovering from the "abuse" they received here

That fucking bear again. Bastard.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 06/04/2018 23:48

It’s late. I’ve been hated at least 500 times on mumsnet today and had electric shock needles poked in my face. I’m going to bed.

I think Donna paid for he second part.

boatyardblues · 07/04/2018 00:06

I’m torn between wanting to know the context for the Navy bunk comment upthread and thinking there may not be enough brsin bleach to deal with the knowing. It has to be said, the last few pages are Swiss cheese with all the deletions and very confusing. What on Earth are you all drinking this evening?

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 00:13

Coffee!

(working)

BudgieInABeret · 07/04/2018 00:16

Boatyard I'm drinking a very nice pinot, but I'm not drinking the Kool aid.
And I'm confused by some of the deletions.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:17

How dare Donna and pals claim that the brutal murder of a trans identified male by homophobic men in Brazil is anything to do with feminists?

spoonless · 07/04/2018 00:18

@AngryAttackKittens
That was my fault. I should have known that, shown a stick, you would grab the wrong end of it. I should have known that you would take any you chance you could to take
'Did you also miss the thing about "some" not being taken to mean "every"',
to mean
'I did not mean "some", I meant "every".'

Given that I have already acknowledged my fallibility in that regard, I consider it a little uncivil of you to still be gloating over your superior language skills.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 00:18

Goodness spoonless. Still going.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 07/04/2018 00:20

Do you really want to know?

This was a feat performed by the more flexible. There is a technique of walking your legs back over your head using the bottom of the bunk above you...it worked better when someone was asleep in the bunk above to give something to push against.
I am not making this up, this was a thing. I believe in newer ships they have increased the headroom to make it impossible after complaints.

PrivatePie · 07/04/2018 00:24

I'm drinking water but easing off now as it's bedtime soon.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 07/04/2018 00:25

Honestly it is true. I was a young woman in the RN in the 1980s. The stuff I learned and experienced made my hair curl and I've given up with trying to uncurl it.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 00:28

Spoonless, you realize that you're being every bit as aggressive and impolite as the people who you seem to think are being unacceptably rude to you, right?

Terftastic · 07/04/2018 00:29

Mmen murdered that poor transwoman. How horrible, and how disingenuous to implicate feminists in that sort of violence.

Women get murdered all over the world - just like that transwoman - every single day. This is the something we have in common with transwomen - victims of male violence.

But how disgusting to put that crime on a par with women talking about - and trying to protect - women's rights in the UK.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 00:29

@Mouth

I know a guy who tried that once. He said it didn't work - maybe he just wasn't trying hard enough? Or maybe it needs a bunk rather than just the wall that one's bed is pushed up against.

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 00:30

I like it when they step right up and show us who they really are.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 00:31

Brazil is currently a rather dangerous place to live, and that's particularly the case for people working in the sex industry, which most of the trans murder victims were.

Guess which group is adamantly opposed to the sex industry and the abuses that its customers inflict on prostitutes? You've got it, it's radfems! Which a fair number of the women here are. But sure, the death of those trans women are our fault because we told Donna that they were talking nonsense about us being invaded by a shadowy right wing cabal.

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 00:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PrivatePie · 07/04/2018 00:33

We ALL know a guy who tried that once.

Flomper · 07/04/2018 00:34

wow this took a turn. What happened with Ted?

Hopefully the OP linked to this thread on twitter when they were describing all the virtual literal violence we dished out today, perhaps all the intelligent debate they actually find will peak trans a few more.

For the record, I only hate one person and he was born a man and lives as a man and i dont have any phobias.

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