Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

T

999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Lemonjello · 06/04/2018 08:07

Nice try.

I have done countless hours of reading from a huge variety of sources in order to come to my own conclusion about this, and it’s not the same as yours.

That’s what most people on here have done.

AsAProfessionalPenis · 06/04/2018 08:07

Changing the sex on birth certificates should never have been allowed as it is factually incorrect

AsAProfessionalFekko · 06/04/2018 08:08

Please look again then.

You say that you 'live as a woman' - is that because you were born female or because you were born make and 'feel like a woman'? (A relevant q).

ReluctantCamper · 06/04/2018 08:10

@DonnaBe did you know read my post?

we use statistical reporting to identify and name the harms that women suffer due to the built in sexism in our society.

If the cohort 'women' contains a large number of people who aren't women, how do we track and report on those harms?

If people who will never, can never be pregnant are counted as women, how do we identify if having a baby can damage your earning potential?

If people who were socialised male are counted as women, how can we identify if female socialisation can prevent people from reaching their full potential?

This side of it doesn't get talked about much because it's less real, less visceral than the threat of male violence. But for me, it's actually yhe most damaging long term effect.

yetanothertranswoman · 06/04/2018 08:10

I'm off to work - but I am sure this will be a fascinating discussion.

morningrunner · 06/04/2018 08:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LostArt · 06/04/2018 08:10

A GRC does not protect women in any way.

Well, I agree with you on this point.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/04/2018 08:11

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

Can I ask if they will then be changing the law to allow people to ask to view a GRC? As I understand that at the moment, it's discriminatory to do so?

In either case, who will be policing this? If a male comes in the women's changing room and gets naked, how will the women there know if he is an official woman and allowed to do that, or a predator there to get his jollies? Who will be enforcing this?

TERFragetteCity · 06/04/2018 08:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Irishfeminist · 06/04/2018 08:12

Donna how do you know everything is fine in Ireland? What are you basing that on? I'd be pleased to hear about your research.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:12

@Bumblebzz

Most of your list is what happens already. The proposed law changes will not change any of that.

People have been changing gender for nearly 70 years. Why has this discussion com up now?

Certainly, the ability to change gender has an impact on society and its effects should be discussed. But not by telling lies about govt proposals And not by repeatedly saying we are being silenced when you're on TV every other day telling the same lies.

Yes, it's right to have a discussion about what the words "man" and "woman" actually mean. I don't think they are just biological terms. Gender is a social construct, if you don't accept that you end up with biological determinism and women's fate being controlled by their hormones and reproductive system. You end up harming women.

OP posts:
ReluctantCamper · 06/04/2018 08:13

and who the hell are these 'anti trans' campaigners?

are there really people who think 'I want to infringe on the rights of others to dress and present in a way that makes them comfortable'?

They sound awful, so name names, let's get them sorted out.

What you will find here are women who are concerned about the quiet erasure of their rights.

R0wantrees · 06/04/2018 08:14

Presumably this is the bit where 'women are educated'?

yetanothertranswoman · 06/04/2018 08:14

if you don't accept that you end up with biological determinism and women's fate being controlled by their hormones and reproductive system

That's not going to go down well on here.

rowdywoman1 · 06/04/2018 08:15

DonnaBe
Trans people never answer this question.
Teaching children that they have the right to consent and the right to privacy is central to child safety. Transactivist organisations are in schools telling children that they must be prepared to undress in front of the opposite sex. This is just one of the many consequences of self ID but the #nodebate groups never tackle the difficult issues that undermine their case.
They just repeated the same line - women are trans hating (we're not). We don't understand the issues (we do) Self ID causes no problems in other countries (not true) Nobody is harmed by self ID - well I've just given you a very clear example of harm to children and you won't discuss it.

If you want to change society to meet your personal needs - as trans people evidently do - then you need to discuss, persuade, be honest and open and engage in the democratic process.

#nodebate, you're all haters and you just don't understand won't cut it I'm afraid.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/04/2018 08:15

Yes, it's right to have a discussion about what the words "man" and "woman" actually mean. I don't think they are just biological terms. Gender is a social construct

This would be fine I think, if it was made clear that that was what was being changed, that sex remained the same, and that sex separated provisions are still fine (which is what man friday is campaigning about I believe).

As it is, people are changing gender, but being treated as though they've changed sex.

LizzieSiddal · 06/04/2018 08:17

Oh thanks for coming on and telling us little women, we are so stupid we don’t know what’s going on. hmm]

We know what is happening. Women’s right are being eroded. We’ve fought for hundreds of years for laws and rights based on our *sex, and we aren’t giving those up.

And it isn’t “just” about toilets and changing rooms. Its about Jobs, Sport, Refugees, and about women being listened too.

athingthateveryoneneeds · 06/04/2018 08:17

Yes, it's right to have a discussion about what the words "man" and "woman" actually mean. I don't think they are just biological terms. Gender is a social construct,

Oxford English dictionary:

Definition of woman in English:
woman
NOUNplural women
1An adult human female.

HTH

ReluctantCamper · 06/04/2018 08:18

it's right to have a discussion about what the words "man" and "woman" actually mean. I don't think they are just biological terms.

At the moment in any widely accepted dictionary you pick up they are biological terms.

LostArt · 06/04/2018 08:18

"Gender is a social construct, if you don't accept that you end up with biological determinism and women's fate being controlled by their hormones and reproductive system. You end up harming women."

This makes no sense. Why does acknowledging biology harm women?

yetanothertranswoman · 06/04/2018 08:19

As it is, people are changing gender, but being treated as though they've changed sex

Some of us have had HRT and surgery. If I wanted to 'change gender', I could have done that without all that stuff. My bodies' chromosomes are still XY but I have done a hell of a lot to get my body as closely aligned mentally with what I need it to be.

Tanith · 06/04/2018 08:19

Many of the posters here have been on MN for years.

This, I see, is your first post.
Who is invading whom?

As a new poster, what gives you the authority to accuse any of the posters on these boards?

Bumblebzz · 06/04/2018 08:20

“Women can make up their own minds, but they should have the truth.”

This reads like you don’t think women have made up their own minds by themselves and/or can’t tell fact from fiction and you are here to help us do that. It’s a bit mansplainy.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 08:20

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

Then you'll support this pointless law being repealed. Great.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:20

@rowdywoman1

All that is being proposed is a change to teh way you get a gender recognition certificate.

I don't think kids should be forced to undress in front of ANY other kids. Same gender or not. So I agree with you there.

I don't think that's anything to do with the GRA though. So please don't clam it is.

Ideas about gender are changing. We need to discuss them. But not by telling lies and spreading fear.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread