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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

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999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
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CATTamongthepigeons · 06/04/2018 07:50
Biscuit
PlowerOfScotland · 06/04/2018 07:51

GlitterballGlitterball

PrivatePie · 06/04/2018 07:52
Biscuit
ReluctantCamper · 06/04/2018 07:54

I am vert vocally gender critical on mumsnet.

I am not part of an anti trans group.

I have been on Mumsnet since by first DC was born in 2011.

You are talking utter paranoid nonsense

rowdywoman1 · 06/04/2018 07:56

You haven't actually listened to concerns of women about this have you? If you had, you wouldn't have written this.

Can you can explain why you think it's OK to tell children that they must undress for school swimming lessons in front of the opposite sex? That children have no right to privacy / dignity and that they have no rights to consent to this? (I bet you can't).

SimonBridges · 06/04/2018 07:56

The problem is the way that certain groups and companies are applying the new act.
For example Swim England (I think that is what they are called) saying that transwoman can use the women’s changing rooms on just their say so.

What is the exact wording of the act?

ReluctantCamper · 06/04/2018 07:58

Possession of a Gender Recognition Certificate means you have changed your sex in the eyes of the law. Any same sex exemptions in the equalities act for your new sex now apply to you.

If anyone can change their sex, what do the words woman and man mean?

First off I'd have thought the gender pay gap will close nicely when all the Pippa Bunces of the world start getting counted in the 'F' box. Old fashioned assigned female at birth women will still be getting paid less of course, but who cares about that?

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:59

@SimonBridges There is no act at the moment. Only proposals and the thinking is that the change will be on Irish lines.

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yetanothertranswoman · 06/04/2018 08:01

This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice

Speaking as someone who has a GRC, who spent many years going to appointments, discussing with psychiatrists, taking HRT and having surgery - I kind if think it's important to have 'body policing' because - as far as I am concerned - being transsexual is about the body and the mind.

I think it's important that a GRC involves this - as the GRA at the moment allows a transsexual to legally be seen as the aquired sex.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:01

@rowdywoman1

I'm simply giving facts about the current state of things and what the actual proposals to change the GRA are. I'm not telling lies about it. Women can make up their own minds, but they should have the truth.

This is not my side of the argument. I am reporting what is happening now and not making up scare stories.

OP posts:
morningrunner · 06/04/2018 08:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TERFragetteCity · 06/04/2018 08:03

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people

Lol. You guys just hate us talking don't you?

GoodyMog · 06/04/2018 08:05

"I am reporting what is happening now and not making up scare stories."

...

"Mumsnet has been invaded.."

Hmm
yetanothertranswoman · 06/04/2018 08:05

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married

Did the GRA say anything else?

What did the GRA say happened legally when you got a new birth certificate?

MonsterSister · 06/04/2018 08:05

Yeah, I think you may be looking at this from your point of view, not that of the average woman and parent.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:05

@ReluctantCamper

I live as a woman. I don't have a GRC. I don't feel a need for one. It's there to get your birth certificate changed. That's all

A GRC does not give any legal sanction to live in a different gender role. People have been been doing it since the 1950s.

A GRC does not protect women in any way. We have other laws that do that.

I don't see how the proposed changes offer any harm to womn.

OP posts:
CorbynTrouserPress · 06/04/2018 08:06

Welcome to the threads DonnaBe, there's plenty here for you to read up on to understand women's concerns.

You say It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

What did you think about Travis Alabaza, a gender fluid person who expresses different genders on different days, creating a change in TopShop changing room policy? He is clearly a man, doesn't 'pass' but still demands and has got access to female changing rooms.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/topshop-made-changing-rooms-gender-13877752

Do you agree with the TopShop policy change? I think from your message you wouldn't?

stitchglitched · 06/04/2018 08:06

The 'big bloke with the beard' will be able to sign the Statutory Declaration if he wants though won't he? No more need to fulfil any of the criteria which is currently the case with obtaining a GRC.

Bumblebzz · 06/04/2018 08:06

I’m not at all convinced that your synopsis of Ireland is correct, it’s not what I have been told, and in any case it’s a very different society with a very different culture and history. And the population of Ireland (republic) is tiny, circa 4mm. It’s just not comparable on so many levels to the U.K.. I’ve lived >20+ years in each country and they are more different than I can summarise here.
As for your other points, I do appreciate your comments about the toilets but really that aspect is the least of my concerns, please can you address these:

  • impact on girl’s and women’s sports when male born people compete against girls/women
  • impact on girls at school/residential camps (such as Girl Guides) when they are made to share with boys who identify as girls. Schools and other orgs are being advised that girls should just put up or shut up effectively
  • impact on stats (and response to same) such as gender pay gap figures when male born people are categorised as women. Ditto crime figures. Medical trials.
  • silencing impact of trans activists telling women they shouldn’t focus on female biology as it’s exclusive. Ditto activists telling women they are “doing feminism wrong”. General erasure of womanhood as it becomes redefined as a “feeling” which is bollox.
  • impact on women when programmes and shortlists designed specifically to increase female representation are open to people born male
DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:07

@TERFragetteCity

I think it's good to talk. But you should tell the truth. A lot of lies have been told about changes to GRA legislation. And most of them by people who have been active ant-trans campaigners for a long time.

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ThatEscalatedQuickly · 06/04/2018 08:07

Ireland and the U.K. are very different. Not least because of population size. The trangender population in Ireland is very very small, the numbers applying for a GRC even smaller and no one is, thus far, marching into changing rooms or toilets, a la the Topshop incident, and insisting they be allowed change in the ladies changing area.

There are concerns that are much wider than toilet usage as I am sure you are well aware.

yetanothertranswoman · 06/04/2018 08:07

It's there to get your birth certificate changed. That's all

It also means you aquire the same status as the 'new sex' legally.

That's quite a big thing to aquire.

AsAProfessionalPenis · 06/04/2018 08:07

Strange then, if you are correct, why we keep seeing reports of crime committed by women and the image is of a big, burly bloke
Trans women are not female. Women and trans women are not the same. Any movement which wants to pretend they are is harmful to women and will not have my support

MyAuntyBadger · 06/04/2018 08:07

We're all capable of thinking for ourselves over here Donna, it's not twitter.

I'd like to see you respond to yetanothertranswoman's post. Why should we treat an AGP with the same respect as yet?

Pratchet · 06/04/2018 08:07

Ireland has effectively legalised indecent exposure, harassment and voyeurism in women's private spaces. It's transphobic and possibly a hate crime to report such problems.

This explains why 'there are no problems in countries with self ID'. The problem is still happening, but it's not illegal any more, and it's considered bigoted to actually report the problem.