Do I let DD14 continue with her online 'friends'!?

[Wiseonce]

Used AI to summarise, apologies! It'a still very long so bear with me.

A few weeks ago we discovered DD14 had been secretly bypassing parental controls and using hidden devices/accounts to talk to a group of 'teenagers' she'd met online. We thought we had all devices locked down but she stole my old phone to bypass all controls. She considers them genuine friends and believes she has a 'girlfriend'. The major concern was that she'd shared a scary amount of real personal information with people she's never met — full name, DOB, phone number, town, school/family information, photos etc. She still believes they're definitely who they say they are. This is a girl who had to be told about Santa, tooth fairy etc at 11 and cried her eyes out, so shes very naive and trusting. There are lots of red flags with the chats- they tell her she's very mature, how to get around controls, say bad things about us and her siblings and started sexual chat early on. My DD is so naive she asked did they mean holding hands! Now she is the one sending the dirty messages as time has gone on.

We removed her phone/internet completely. Put new passwords on all devices in the house. Initially as punishment for stealing my phone but then to keep her safe when we came across all this other stuff. She was devastated and had a complete meltdown, which lasted weeks. but after a few weeks she's much happier, spending loads of time doing sport, seeing IRL friends and engaging with family again.
It's now time to start giving her phone back, as I realise a teen needs a phone but these people are also on WhatsApp and there are hundreds of messages waiting. I feel like as soon as she opens the phone she's going to be sucked straight back in again. We obviously can't prevent a determined teenager accessing strangers online forever, so we need to figure out what to do.

Would you initially lock the phone right down and gradually increase access, or give her more trust — e.g. WhatsApp/Spotify allowed provided she blocks/deletes everyone she doesn't know IRL, with occasional phone checks — and restrict it again if she breaks that trust? And what would you do about all the existing messages/contacts? Do I just let her keep her online friends? Do I delete/block the strangers?

I'm very lost and go back and forth about it. I wouldn't mind so much but she seems really obsessed. She behaved like a drug addict in withdrawal when we initially took them away. She ignores real life friends to speak to these online ones. She has screen savers of photos of them even though they have never met, she's talking about talking a gap year after school to travel to them. They are from a different country so she is literally learning their language every day, including on holiday so she can speak to them. She was on a school trip abroad and spent over 7 hours on the phone to them in 1 day instead of talking to the kids on the trip actually with her.... She even has entire photo albums of just pictures of the one she believes is/was her girlfriend and has drawn lots of photos of her. Maybe I'm old but I think it's bloody weird. And obsessive. She's never met these people!! I haven't said any of this to her face, I've been very neutral and just talked about risks and safety. But what do I do!? Please don't be judgemental I am trying my best and want to do his right so she's not sneaking around anymore. But equally they could just be online groomers!? They could be anyone!

So sorry you are having to deal with this.

I honestly think that you should go to the police. Please also look at the Breck Foundation website.

There is some brilliant advice on here. I am sorry you’re going through this.
Just to echo to talk to school - in part for advice and support but also to keep an eye on your DD. They will probably be very familiar with these situations.

You mentioned having other DC - could they play a role in informing her of online dangers/internet ? Not sure how much older & might depend on their relationship with DD but some things might be heard differently from a trusted sibling? I don’t mean to make them responsible but challenges about the authenticity of online relationships/exchanges might feel more relevant. Teenagers generally think parents don’t know anything.
is there another trusted adult she might listen to?

Maybe hearing the same messages from different people might get her thinking?
Can you continue to build IRL friendships - drama, sports etc so there is less time & hopefully interest in pursuing the online relationships?

You could talk to the NSPCC - they used to do online safety sessions for parents. You’d need a small group of around 6 but you could include her dad & some friends parents. Might be worth checking out.

Do her friends parents know about their kids online behaviour? Could you get together & share your experience - maybe they are worried too.

Can you get her dad onside to do the same controls /rules as you? Does he understand the risks and your level of concern? A united front is needed.
The Bred Brekner Foundation has a film & resources. They are largely aimed at teachers but could support parents. They have been used in several schools in some counties.
https://www.breckfoundation.org/breck-resources

If she’s getting a phone back she needs a new sim/number

Thanks all, I really appreciate the links and support. I will go into all of them once I get a chance after work. It is a crap situation and I really appreciate all the advice.

She has quite compelling evidence that at least one of the teens is a real teen so she's completely shut out of the 'they may not be who they say they are' conversation. I have moved to the 'even if they are exactly who you think they are the relationships themselves are extremely unhealthy'. But none of it is landing. She is completely shut down at the moment. But as I say, all devices-including our own have been password changed etc so she can't get on anywhere while at home. I am extremely worried about when she goes back to school though. Her dad has been informed, and while initially really upset about the whole thing, is genuinely clueless and unlikely to block access to anything there. He was even confused as to why he should change his phone pin 🤯I have password changed all of her accounts and put 2 factor authentication on, so it's unlikely she could get into her old accounts there but not impossible to find another way to contact them there.

School is currently not open but I will be contacting the safeguarding lead once they do. Her real life friends, I don't know the parents, we acknowledge eachother at drop offs to things, but that is all, I don't have numbers etc. (very different to when they were in primary school and I knew all the mums). And it sounds awful but she is in a very diverse school- a lot of her friends parents don't speak English.

I don't think the police would be helpful in this situation. The only evidence I have actually does point to them being teens. By no means does that mean the 'relationships' are ok, but with underage teens contacting eachother (a lot of which appears to be actually initiated by my daughter!) I can't see a legal issue. It's more an unhealthy obsession she can't kick. These girls seem cool- they have piercings and dye their hair purple and vape and talk in a sexual way. My DD thinks they are the coolest thing about and she's not willing to let that go. She has a lot of friends, but none of them she feels particularly close to. These online ones are it for her. I have her in various sports and activities 7 days a week to build relationships but there's only so much I can do.

My other DC is younger and has made it very clear to her he thinks she's an absolute idiot for speaking to strangers online. He is so much more savvy anyway and we have always had the online safety chats but after the whole situation came out I had to look at educating him too. DD didn't take much notice of what he had said as her online 'friends' have told her he's a snitch and they don't like him etc. they were very close until these people came into the mix. Another sad thing about the whole situation.

My DD said last night that she feels very weak and lacking control and thats why she was happy to get a bit of control sneaking behind our backs, it gave her some control. It worries me she feels this way. And makes me so sad too. She did say she would like to say goodbye to the 'friends'. would this give her closure? I would literally stand behind her as she sent a message or whatever. She's asked that I don't contact them myself. I don't see what would come of that anyway so I haven't.

Well I think you are at a point, were you can't really stop her. That's why you are in this limbo. You see the limitations your self. The moment she is online / has a phone, she's probably going to talk to them again.
Keeping her from the internet only goes so far. She will probably find a way around it, even if you don't give her any access to mobile devices.

So I would talk and connect to her as much as possible. Yes you have already done that and it is frustrating that she didn't respond the way you hoped. But it is your best shot in my opinion. Because the uncomfortable truth is, she is getting something from this friendships she isn't getting elswere. Try to figure out, why this online friends are more important to her than her real life friends.

Maybe also look for outside help like therapy.

When I was a teenager and AOL was a thing. I met four other teens online and we spoke for years. We decided to meet up in person and guess what? We are still friends nearly 25 years later they even came to my wedding.
Not everyone on the Internet is bad and theres a lot of lonely kids online.

Edit: my parents said the same as you, so we did good old fashioned MSN webcam to prove they were real. Maybe your dd could do face time with you there with her.

Id speak to daughter about the importance of real friends & get her to find where this “friend “ really lives ,and enthusiastically suggest to daughter that you take her on a little trip where she could meet this “friend” .
Start suggesting dates etc, and looking at hotels in the area with your daughter, who would get excited and that excitement would be conveyed to the “Friend“ - then just wait and see how long before said friend would find a great excuse for daughter not to visit.
Daughter would sadly be upset but hopefully realise these fraudsters aren’t who they say they are or where they say they are .
Job done and you’re not the baddie because after all you were trying to facilitate a meet up .

And if the friend does want to meet up? Suddenly I'm backtracking and look like more of a monster. That is a very risky game to play

It's not whether they are real is the issue. They have shown lots of red flag behaviours. They are older than my daughter and have taken her from thinking being in a relationship means holding hands to full blown detailed sexual conversations. They have encouraged her to get around parental limits. They have taught her that we are controlling and that she shouldn't trust us or her brother (who she was very close to) They romanticise vaping, their language is awful and her scores in school have dropped since she started talking to them. She is obsessed. They may well just be lonely teens- but not the teens that are good for my DD. She has said things that I'm now connecting the dots to that are scary, for example talking about the Romeo and Juliette laws which make it not illegal for sexual relationships with older teens. Why would she need to know that!? She has only just turned 14 so most of this began when 13. I'm glad you found good friends, and I believe many people do. This is not that situation.

I guess it depends on whether you believe the friend is real or not.

Thanks, yes I am trying this approach too. She has had therapy in the past through school and through us paying privately. She didn't feel she got anything out of either. I will mention it again while chatting with the safeguarding lead at school. And look into it externally too.

It actually does matter if they are who they say they are. I really agree with other posters on here and think that you should consider police involvement or, at least, advice. It's a sad fact that a lot of adults who abuse young people use their peer group to do it. The Rochdale grooming gang infiltrated friend groups through teenage individuals they had groomed and police believe Andrew Gosden was lured from his home by an abuser posing as an online teenage friend. It is a huge concern that they are looking to separate her from you and her brother, teaching her to bypass security and parental controls and (most importantly) sexualising their conversations and her thinking. If she borrows a friends phone to call them or uses a school or friends device this also puts others at risk as well as her. I'm not judging you at all, this is an unprecedented and horrible situation and you did everything you could to protect her but now is the time to put your foot down hard on this in every way you can. Gather everything you have and get in touch with the police now. It will be the first thing the school tell you to do. Also show her Father the messages if he hasn't seen them..he might not be good at tech but he will learn fast when he knows needs to.

From experience, not every therapist is the right fit for every client. I had six in my live and with two I had a real conection. Also sometimes it takes a while until things improve.

Maybe it's also worth to let her pick the topics she want to talk about first in therapy. For example, if she doesn't see her online friends as a problem then talking about that topic isn't the right place to start even it it's the most important topic to you! Maybe she preferes to talk about the relationship with you or how she fells she has no control, a school relatet problem or what ever. That's fine to eastablsh a relationship with her therapist first. Therapy only works with willing participants.

I'm quite a 'chill' person about online friendships, but this has got red flags all over it - trying to alienate her from you, telling her she's mature, encouraging her to lie and keep secrets (because they will all ask for bigger lies and to keep darker, more damaging secrets). This is exactly how you'd try to groom a young person into something dangerous and/or exploitative.

I think she needs to know this and she and needs to know she can and must talk to you if people she comes across online say things like this and that she will prove she is immature and naive if she falls for 'You're so mature' and 'Don't tell your parents anything' and so on, and then the people at the other end of the phone are likely to draw her into very bad stuff. But reiterate, the most important thing to you is her safety, and not to believe anything online 'friends' say you will do it say if you disclose an issue. No matter how far things have gone you love her and value her safety and she must tell you if she's scared or upset by anything, or facing some sort of blackmail etc. Hopefully after this it will never come to that.

The police's CEOP website has age appropriate material about this she should perhaps look at before getting her phone back.

New phone number. Google classroom on a laptop. You can always allow her more leeway in a year or two.

Can you maybe drill down on the do you love your brother side of things, they told you to hate your brother does that seem right. Try and get her to unpack what they are asking her to do. Why did they decide her brother was bad. Just ask the questions, very neutral tone of voice etc no accusations more I’m concerned because you were always such good friends etc. I’m not sure it will help but perhaps it may drop a little seed of doubt in there and when someone is struggling and is being mentally coerced those little questions can help and direct attacks can push them further away (sorry started considering this from the how do you deal with someone who’s in a cult situation) she may not be in person but the behaviour of these people is designed to isolate her from family and friends and that is what cults do.

Regards your question in stopping contact with these people here is my suggestions before giving phone:

Use current phone to check browsing history and make a list of websites where she talks to these people - the accounts need deleted, ask tech friend or chatgpt for step by step instructions.

Go through emails and list anything about "new message received" or "your account" in relation to any websites - these accoumts need deleted.

Once you have deleted all accounts from your list ensure you have gmail or icloud login details and are able to login via laptop on an incognito window - if you can great.

Now factory reset the phone, when its acting like a new phone wanting you to set it up, delete the gmail or icloud sccount via laptop. At this point all tech sccounts are gone, this is good.

Next remove the sim card and contact the provider to cancel the account or change number/new sim card. Ideally take this as an opportunity to cancel provider if you can but i understand you may be in contract, but ideally a clean break to a new provider with new sim, maybe pay as you go might be easier in the short term as no contract.

So lets say its android. You can defintly setup any android to block every website as standard and each one she would have to ask your approval so Id be confident to say she will definitly not be able to communicate vis websites at all and same for apps, block everything and make it you have to approve each one.

So she will have a phone with new gmail, new number, no access to websites and no access to apps.

This all possible 100% with family link.

The only risk i forsee is friends giving out her number to these creeps as texting and calls could potentially not be blocked depending on phone make and model. This is where smartphone free childhood could help as there are phones that have deeper controls to really restrict outgoing and incoming calls and texts, so if you had one of those, with full control over contacts, outgoing and incoming calls - then yes it would be possible to fully restrict every form of contact on the phone.

But its not simple process, as above theres many pieces of the puzzle.

The fact she is saying she will just contact them...I dont think thats good. My dh colleague, had a dd who was in similar situation and ended up in court along with other girls from same school as it'd been a local creepy guy messaging them and they all had to give statements or however court works, Im not sure. But very stressful for the family and i remeber the parents werent allowed in the court wuth their dd and it was just a huge stress.

With her attitude of fighting you. Id be inclined to see if you could contact smartphone free childhood for phone suggestions. Id probably sell the pc-but have it factory reset before sale and same delete sll associayed accounts, not as punishment but as its too much of a risk to control especially if your not tech savvy and I dont mean that rudeky, its just yoo bog of a risk.

Im sorry that your dealing with all this, she doesnt sound responsible enough for tech access tbh, not risk aware enough imo.

I have always had tightest parental controls with dcs, explaining from young age theyre like shields i put around them to protect them and its fairly collaborative chats over the years and weve had many discussions about strangers and risks, scenarios and the general why of it all.

But your dd is actively going against you and thats very very difficult for you.

Until she changes her attitude maybe the only tech she is responsible enough for is a playstation with full parental controls and role playing games like Hogwarts, wherethere is zero risk.

If she's not going to work with you and not recognising risks, and going to act like a petulant 10 year old, then maybe you just need to treat her like one?

Sorry for typos on last post!

I appreciate you are in a very difficult position.

Id be inclined no tech for 6 months but cultivate real life experiences, fill her time with clubs, with good effort and attendance then you will have a conversation after 6 months about phone. Some ideas:

Structure, discipline, STEM - cadets but likely air cadets due to enjoying tech

Girls team sport - its well documented for its benefits - football or netball or hockey

Creative - group art class or group music lessons

Life skills - teen swimming lessons class, martial arts

But i appreciate realistically no tech could be an issue for schoolwork. Your in a difficult position!x

Have you tried calling the numbers?

I haven't tried calling the numbers. I'm not sure what it would achieve. They haven't tried to contact my DD in a few weeks thankfully. I think since my DD has been honest that she will attempt to contact them if she gets a phone, I need to just not give her one. She's been really happy and back to herself since I told her no more phones, I'm not sure if it was maybe a relief in some way? Logistically it may be difficult but I'm determined to do what is best for her- and right now that's a total pause on the internet. She is involved in 3 different team sports, drama and a creative hobby so she has lots to keep her busy and lots of chances for interactions with peers which will hopefully be more positive. She has also really gotten back into reading these last few weeks which had totally stopped with technology too!

I think it's been such a huge shock because we were so strict on the parental controls and always have been so we thought we were doing the right thing. We didn't want her singled out for not having a phone or a computer but clearly she was not mature enough to handle them yet. Annoyingly I don't think you suddenly become mature enough for these things and it's trial and error but now she doesn't have the chance to learn in her own....

She is still deeply emotionally invested in these people and is still writing about them privately. She is also still learning their language which she thinks I don't know, and has their phone number. I was going to destroy their phone number but I think she has actually learnt them off so this would be pointless. I think she may be able to have limited communication when she goes back to school (through friends) but I'm really just hoping that the desire to contact them eventually goes away. She did have a crush a year or so ago and it went away when she was off school for summer as she hasn't seen them. Hopefully this works in the same way. We are spending more time together and we watch catfish. I haven't broached any documentaries yet, although we were discussing documentaries in general yesterday so may be a good time if we get time together tonight.

If you have their numbers why not ring them up yourself and find out what's going on, talk to their parents. What country are they in and how did they communicate if your DD didn't speak their language? The fact that they are not in the same country (or claim not to be) in my mind increases the likelihood they are not children just making it appear impossible to meet up in person. Or if they really are in another country they may encourage her to travel there to meet them

Can you at least delete all the messages before she gets access to them? What ages are these other 'children'?

I don't deserve to be a parent because I am keeping my daughter from at best teenagers who romanticise self harm, vaping, skipping school and messaging obscene things online to strangers, not to mention stealing, lying and sneaking behind my back.....and at worst online grooming peados?

I think you will find you are in the minority with your opinion. Hopefully you don't teach your own children to be so vile to someone looking for support

I can't imagine they would let me speak to their parents? And I don't really know what phoning them would achieve. It's not like they would tell me they aren't who they say they are. They are supposedly 15/16. They can speak both English and their own language so they speak to DD in English. If my DD gets her phone back it won't be soon and yes I would delete the messages

I dont have anything to add, Im just letting you know Im following along and think your doing the right things in a difficult situation x