Do I let DD14 continue with her online 'friends'!?

[Wiseonce]

Used AI to summarise, apologies! It'a still very long so bear with me.

A few weeks ago we discovered DD14 had been secretly bypassing parental controls and using hidden devices/accounts to talk to a group of 'teenagers' she'd met online. We thought we had all devices locked down but she stole my old phone to bypass all controls. She considers them genuine friends and believes she has a 'girlfriend'. The major concern was that she'd shared a scary amount of real personal information with people she's never met — full name, DOB, phone number, town, school/family information, photos etc. She still believes they're definitely who they say they are. This is a girl who had to be told about Santa, tooth fairy etc at 11 and cried her eyes out, so shes very naive and trusting. There are lots of red flags with the chats- they tell her she's very mature, how to get around controls, say bad things about us and her siblings and started sexual chat early on. My DD is so naive she asked did they mean holding hands! Now she is the one sending the dirty messages as time has gone on.

We removed her phone/internet completely. Put new passwords on all devices in the house. Initially as punishment for stealing my phone but then to keep her safe when we came across all this other stuff. She was devastated and had a complete meltdown, which lasted weeks. but after a few weeks she's much happier, spending loads of time doing sport, seeing IRL friends and engaging with family again.
It's now time to start giving her phone back, as I realise a teen needs a phone but these people are also on WhatsApp and there are hundreds of messages waiting. I feel like as soon as she opens the phone she's going to be sucked straight back in again. We obviously can't prevent a determined teenager accessing strangers online forever, so we need to figure out what to do.

Would you initially lock the phone right down and gradually increase access, or give her more trust — e.g. WhatsApp/Spotify allowed provided she blocks/deletes everyone she doesn't know IRL, with occasional phone checks — and restrict it again if she breaks that trust? And what would you do about all the existing messages/contacts? Do I just let her keep her online friends? Do I delete/block the strangers?

I'm very lost and go back and forth about it. I wouldn't mind so much but she seems really obsessed. She behaved like a drug addict in withdrawal when we initially took them away. She ignores real life friends to speak to these online ones. She has screen savers of photos of them even though they have never met, she's talking about talking a gap year after school to travel to them. They are from a different country so she is literally learning their language every day, including on holiday so she can speak to them. She was on a school trip abroad and spent over 7 hours on the phone to them in 1 day instead of talking to the kids on the trip actually with her.... She even has entire photo albums of just pictures of the one she believes is/was her girlfriend and has drawn lots of photos of her. Maybe I'm old but I think it's bloody weird. And obsessive. She's never met these people!! I haven't said any of this to her face, I've been very neutral and just talked about risks and safety. But what do I do!? Please don't be judgemental I am trying my best and want to do his right so she's not sneaking around anymore. But equally they could just be online groomers!? They could be anyone!

Honestly she sounds too immature for a phone. It’s all a bit wierd; I expect they aren’t who they say they are. Have you talked to her plainly about safety online? Explained about consent and sexual abuse of minors. I would be trying to educate her on the dangers- she sounds very sheltered and I think given that she is just not ok to have a phone. I wouldn’t be giving it back.

Changing the phone number is a good idea.
Have you read the anxious generation? It talks a lot about the harm of having friends online instead of having them in real life.

Yes, I have explained all of it, blackmail, kids killing themselves over it. I have not sugar coated any of it. But she isn't seeing that any of it could be her. I explained the risks of giving all real information and not long later she said I know I have my information but I'm worried about (online friend) she's given me so much information so quickly 🤯😭 I pointed out that the only information we know for sure is real is the information DD has been giving out. It still isn't clicking

Sorry but it also sounds like appalling parenting if a child chooses to kill themselves instead of admitting that they made a mistake. It means they were so scared of what their parents would do that they felt death was the easier option. What the almighty hell goes on in those families.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002523t

I don’t know if this is the documentary mentioned by pps but you should watch this, I was stunned. I forget the exact figures but of his over 4000 victims, I believe only 4 children told what was happening to them. I think before that I believed like you did that children in secure families would seek help from their parents. I think these abusers are so skilled at making children feel deep shame and terror at the threat of their image or behaviours being shared. It’s horrifying.

@user7989776And no doubt she tells herself that every day. It really doesn't mean that he was scared of them, what a simplistic thought. They had a fabulous relationship, he was the youngest of four and her baby. He was also impulsive and prone to acting first and thinking later. Only this time he wasn't able to think later.
He left a letter saying he was sorry he had let everyone down. He wasn't scared - in his mental state as a young teenager he didn't know what to do - the emails from the evil bastard threatened to ruin his life, his parents life etc if he didn't send money, video sexual acts etc. The only thing he was scared of was letting them down.

She is a brilliant mum and his dad is too. His sisters spoiled the one boy of the family. It broke them all.
I have experience of this via my job and believe you me it happens to many families and the kids are never scared of their parents.

I had actually wanted to make her watch that particular documentary with me. I believe he posed as a teen girl who was gay/bisexual so it really would be relevant to her. The problem is that she understands how that can happen, she doesn't feel like it's happening to her, or grasp that it could happen to her. I would definitely like to completely remove the phone and access to these 'friends' but in this day and age when access to the internet is everywhere I feel that it would be impossible and would simply make her more secretive. I wonder is there a way where she can be allowed her phone (without mobile data so most sites will be blocked by our router at home) with lots of rules in place- ie. I know the phone pin and there is an expectation that I will be going through her phone regularly. I keep the rule of no PC access except supervised for homework. And obviously lots of time limits on the phone- although these only function to a certain extent. I wasn't aware until recently an ongoing phonecall will not be picked up and will continue until the other person hangs up, past the limits. I don't know. A brick phone is useless as soon as she adds their numbers to it. Which she can get through real life friends. And as far as I'm aware there are no ways to set limits or control the device remotely.

I am not naive enough to believe that removing her phone is a permanent solution, since they have infiltrated her real life relationships now too. I'm completely lost honestly.

Has anyone successfully removed these type of people from their teens lives???. Or know of an outside agency that can scare her sufficiently? She is a lonely teen who is obsessed with these 'girls', believes she is in love with one of them, and has a history of self harm. Not to mention is extremely immature and naive...and struggles massively with change and people leaving her (her dad, and then a best friend left her school a year or 2 later) I am afraid if I remove all access she will go off the deep end. I want to keep her onside and safe at the same time. Maybe that's impossible. I do believe the worst parenting mistake I ever made was allowing her a PC and a smartphone. Even with limits and parental controls she was able to get herself into such an emotionally harmful situation

Ive not rtft. How about a new dumb phone but one that seems modern, check out smartphone free childhood for recommednations.

I would use chatgpt to help you methodically guide you to delete all her old accounts, like a tech support guide for you - do email addresses, every account should be deleted.

Then hand her a new phone with her new email address for setup, full parental controls and minimum apps etc. And obviosuly a new phone number too.

You can restrict adding of contacts via google family link, only you can allow contacts to be added. You can also restrict websites to only permitted ones you allow, literally every other website will ask for parental confirmation even if it was cbebbies it wont load the site unless you confirm.

Same with apps, the settings can be made that no apps can be downloaded without your approval.

Ive setup dcs phones like this and theyre basically useless 😂

You can get her a cheap second hand chromebook and use same family link account details to login. So she will have one gmail account for android phone and chromebook laptop that you will have full restrictions over.

Chromebooks come with free office and built in antivirus and can do pretty much most things and for you the family link would have full control over it along with the phone.

Would that work?

And im sure you can also make it that only parent approved contacts can be called or text. So if she was at school and did ask for these crazy peoples phone numbers, she'd have literally no way of dialling out from her phone or texting them.

You can totally lock down a phone and chromebook using google family link, and google family link is also free of charge too.

What things was she actually doing on her pc? Was it gaming? If so I'd ditch the pc and get her a 2nd hand ps4 or ps5, the parental controls on there are extensive and again can be totally locked down to chat with only friends you allow to be added and there is a free parent app. Get her some nice immersive games to work through that will keep her busy like hogwarts, but theres lots of fantastic games on playstation, if its gaming that she is into?

I just don’t think “she needs the supercomputer in her pocket for drama club” washes given she’s been sexting strangers (potential groomers) and this demonstrated she’s at risk of harm because she is not mature enough to access it.

If you’re not completely certain you can lock it down (close to impossible) then surely the risk of harm well outweighs any potential benefit?

Thanks for this. Unfortunately we did have Google family link, blocking all social media sites and requiring permission for downloading apps. One of her online 'friends' told her that to get around that just access them through a browser, which worked. She could access all of them-instagram, discord etc. we can block websites separately through our home router, which we had already done before any of this, but at her dad's house all bets were off and she could access anything on her browser. Even on WiFi outside our house. It's a real minefield. Also yes I can block numbers to and from her phone- but this doesn't work on WhatsApp. I had assumed because we had all of these safeguards in place it was enough, it definitely wasn't.

Theoretically she can simply borrow her friends phone on the bus home and ring them herself without owning a phone. It's a nightmare. I had considered even giving her lifts to and from school, but that's impractical with work in the long term.

I definitely won't be getting her a Chromebook as it is too easy to sneak around and as above- there are limits to how useful Google family link is. A PC which can be really locked down and is only used when I'm in the room is much safer. She doesn't use it for gaming- it's for coding which is fine and doesn't involve any social aspect, and she was doing video editing, but that won't be happening anymore as it was then posted on YouTube where you can message people. At the moment she has neither as her PC has been dismantled. We used to have an Xbox but again- there is Xbox messages where she has added these strangers to chat to when gaming. They have infiltrated everywhere.

@JehovasFitness I'm not disagreeing. But there's also a fine line here- she struggles with friendships in real life and loneliness. When there's a club who all chat about the show and rehearsals etc together on a WhatsApp group, she's already feeling excluded and lonely if she can't join in on that. I want to push real life friends as much as possible to avoid the need for her to access online people to fill that gap. It's just a really bloody awful thing that using WhatsApp has been normalised for all these teen group chats. It's probably my main issue with a brick phone. That and I can't track a brick phone- i can track a smartphone.

We have been in no man's land for over a month where I have removed all internet and devices so I'm not taking any of this lightly. Far from it. I'm just trying to navigate it whilst not encouraging her to become even more secretive. She actually asked today again what was happening with her phone and I outlined all the dangers again and was honest with her in that she's put us in a position where I don't know how to safely navigate this right now. I gave possible outcomes where she may get a phone back- blocked strangers, factory reset, I have all pins and passwords and will be in it all the time, new number, no social media etc, possibly getting an old brick phone. She was on board for all of them except changing her number and was worried about no WhatsApp for the group chats as I suspected. Worryingly she blamed it all on herself for contacting the strangers, saying it was all her and not them. Sticking up for them really worried me. I also explained that being so emotionally invested in people she has never met- having albums of photos of them, having them as her screensaver, learning their language, is all huge red flags. She had even printed pictures of them and stuck them on her wall. (She told me it was a celeb and I believed her at the time) Being that emotionally invested in anyone is too much- nevermind being that invested in someone who may well just be a 50 year old man sitting behind a screen.

She is still in denial and still clearly believes they are who they say they are. I actually do believe they are too but certainly am not saying that to her. I have informed the two oldest we are going to start a new series- catfish. And we also have a few documentaries to watch before school goes back. Maybe it will help, maybe it won't. But before I give her any access to anything I will educate her. Because clearly all the chats about online safety, and all the school education on it has gone in one ear and out the other. I may resort to a brick phone. I may block her phone as much as possible and check it religiously. I don't know 😭

On family link, rather than blocking specific websites, just block all websites, this is a separate setting to app restrictions.

Website restrictions is in Controls > Google chrome and web > only allow approved sites.

That way all websites are blocked and nothing will load. Then you add acceptable sites one at a time from there.

It wont depend on whether its wifi or mobile data, no sites will load on a phone or chromebook if this setting is applied.

Weve had xbox aswell and still have one, just the preference is playstation now, you need to deep dive into the settings to block things like being able to add friends, it is totally possible. I do think playstation is simpler but thats my opinion.

I used to work in tech support and i recently setup my friends dc nintendo switch child profile and linked adult profile and made an epic account and setup fortnite. It took me 1.5hrs to go through every parental control setting on nintendo, epic and fortnite as I went through everything with a fine tooth comb. The settings are there but its time consuming.

Theres no way to sneak around family link settings unless the dc know parent password.

But if you dont have anyone irl to help you then chatgpt can be very helpful.

I personally think if shes coding then she could get round windows software easier than a locked down chromebook but again thats just my opinion.

Youve maybe missed a couple of setting on family link and feel burned by your experience and blaming family link in general, but it is a good and thorough set of controls for phones and chromebooks.

Have you had a chance to look at smartphone free childhood for phone recommendations. They have a section of smartphones https://www.smartphonefreechildhood.org/alternatives?deviceCategory=follow-on-phones but i do think current phone, factory reset with new email and sim, with every setting locked down in family link would be ok to save you money.

Hoping you find a solution and like i say if you dont have any tech savvy people to spare a couple of hours to look things over for you then use chatgpt to help you step by step.

If she likes coding, can you have her join air cadets, they do a lot of stem work including robotics. Out in the real world meeting new people and lots of experiences. Its a mix of girls and boys.

Thank you, this is very helpful. It could definitely work to prevent meeting new people online, but I guess the problem is she would still attempt to contact these other friends. There is no way to stop that, is there? She has admitted today of she got a phone she would keep talking to them. So for the foreseeable I can't imagine giving her any phone at all 😢 I do have someone who can do all this thankfully, I would be a bit more clueless

It’s extremely dangerous. Look up groups like 764. They may be teenagers, but they still may not be safe. There are some very toxic groups out there targeting young people with horrific results. They deliberately target vulnerable and LGBTI kids. Start out friendly and slowly become destructive.

Please read this article:

“The National Crime Agency (NCA) considers groups like 764 to be one of "the most severe and serious online threats" it is dealing with.

Rob Richardson, deputy threat lead for online child sexual abuse at the NCA, says members of such groups are getting younger and their crimes are under-reported.

"Being able to speak to the victims is often quite challenging from a law enforcement perspective," he said.

"Victims don't often recognize themselves as victims, so that makes it particularly difficult. Young girls are incredibly vulnerable.”

Have you contacted the police about this, OP? What these people are doing is illegal and it’s likely your daughter isn’t their only victim. Tbh she sounds very similar to my autistic DC (very trusting, emotionally naive, obsessive interests, struggles with change, questioning sexuality, etc) and this is exactly the sort of child these predators target. Agree with PP suggesting you look up 764, etc. I know you mentioned her father isn’t much help but is he aware of all this?

As others have said, you need to take every possible step to restrict and monitor all her communications, inform school, her father, the police and the parents of her friends who are in touch with these people. The risk to her is high so I’d be watching her like a hawk from now on - I know we all want to give our kids age appropriate freedom but a lot of kids just aren’t emotionally ready for a “typical” level of freedom at 14 and need more protection and oversight for a bit longer.

Some more information. This is for professionals but will help you too. These people, even though they are mostly kids, are very tech savvy, some of them are expert hackers, and they will always be able to find a way in. I’m sorry if this all seems alarmist, but I have had some involvement with this stuff before and the fact your daughter is LGBTI with a history of self harm, sets off huge alarm bells.

Sorry, pressed enter too quickly:

Com Groups

Take her phone away and tell her she is not to talk to people or add people that she doesn't know in real life end of story. The chances are they aren't who they say they are, they are talking sexually it's totally unacceptable. You say they say bad things about you too big red flags! My dd doesn't add people she doesn't know that was drilled into her when she first got her phone but when she's going on her phone too long and staying up at night on it we confiscate it. When she does get it back do regular random checks on it and keep an eye on search history ect. Being a parent is hard, remember though we are not their friends, we are there to protect them and keep them safe even if they hate us for it! Encourage her to get out in real life and maybe some mother daughter time.

You’ve reclaimed your daughter, snatched her from the dangerous jaws of destructive online relationships- successfully. And you’re thinking of giving her the phone back?! Be brave and keep it from her. It could literally save her life. It will not be so easy to extract her again.

Speak to school.

this is very common and they will be able to help. Email in and explain the situation and ask that pastoral staff/the dsl be made aware and that you are looking for advice

in similar situations at my school it was made clear to teachers that X did not have Google classroom and homework etc needed to be printed. The student checked in with pastoral staff every day who checked them for phones and spoke to them to support them in engaging with real life.

they can also speak to dad.

this may also be escalated to make the police aware as it’s quite possible the numbers and/or people will be recognised.

i’m sorry to say but it is very unlikely they are really teenagers.

@User7989776what?! When do people decide to be straight then? Before or after 14?

I suggest you both watch Kayleigh's Love Story. It was made with the cooperation of Kayleigh's parents.

Then Breck's last game

Honestly, I would get her an old brick of a phone that you can only call or text on.