Does your school have separate tables for clever and 'not so clever' children?

[Flightattendant]

Wondering if this is commonplace in primary schools...it was the case when we were small, and everyone know who were the 'clever' children and who was at the other end of the spectrum.
I remember it being awful and nobody from either group ended up changing from that slot all the way through school.

It seems ds's school is doing this as well and he's on the 'rubbish' table (his description of himself)

I am furious that he has been given this idea that he is not good at stuff

Someone mentioned they thought it wasn't allowed any more, but I don't know.

Would appreciate your comments on whether this happens at your child's school or not, and what the thinking is behind it.

Thankyou.

Yes, classes are divided into groups for each subject based on ability, ie. triangles, circles, squares and diamonds for maths. It isn't expressly said which are the better groups but the kids know.

I don't see how you could teach a class of 30 kids with very differing abilities otherwise though.

Nope in fact it is something dd's school actively avoids.
THey also have a special needs base inside the school with some special needs teachers and every child in the school (not just children with SEN) go to that class in a group and work with the teachers there forsay part of a project or to use some of the facilities to try and avoid the SEN children being picked on for going there as every child goes there from time to time in their week.

at dd's school (she's in yr3) they are streamed for numeracy and literacy, and when they are doing work at their desks, yes, it is my impression they are sat in groups of 6 of similar ability children, and have been since yr1. the teacher has not come out outright and said this is the case, but i have friends who are ta's in the school and have confirmed my suspicions.

NO.

I'm not a teacher but a parent who helps in school one morning a week. For maths and & literacy the children work on different tables. They are in groups according to ability. The class are all taught together initially and then they go to their groups to do written work. The work is different, depending on the ability of children in that group. The children are monitored and are therefore moved between groups, if it is thought necessary. A child might be in the top group for literacy, for instance, but the middle group for maths.

I can't see anything wrong with this. Is is surely the best approach?

They do have different tables but I would not go as far as clever and not clever as the same child can be on a top table for a subject and a lower one on another. IMHO it is quite a good thing as it allows children to work at their own pace and still learn something.

In my days, (abroad) there were no tables (as in degrees of sort) so the ones that were struggling would just carry on struggling with no help whatsoever while the "clever ones" wold just carry on. very unfair system IMHO and I was one of the "clever ones".

I think most schools still do to some extent - mine usually has mixed ability tables which are their "home" tables and then move them around into ability groups for numeracy & literacy

In Year 2 they sit in different groups for maths and english depending on their ability, then they are in mixed groups for everything else.

By the time they go upto year 3 they are able to choose which group they sit in, so if they are finding a particular bit of maths hard one week they can pop into a different group to get extra help. The teacher does guide them a little bit but tries to let them go where they are comfortable as this encourages them to work harder.

We have ability based groups all the way through primary, different tables and different groups for each subject.

The children do move around within these groups and it seems fairly fluid.

They seem not to at DDs school. Now she's in year 6 they are at paired desks, and it seems to be arranged with a quicker and slower child together to balance things up when they are doing work in pairs. The other aspect is that bad boys are placed with well-behaved girls, to my DDs annoyance.

They have an extra teacher who does individual sessions but its about fulfilling potential - so for instance a bright child with sloppy spelling who ought to be able to do better might have some sessions with her.

Different groups in Year 2 for maths and literacy, and mixed groups for other subjects eg art, music etc. Huge range of ability in the Year 2 class though from those who are very bright and able to access work several years ahead, and those struggling with being able to write.

Ds1's Year 4 class works as one group though, with the extreme ends being taken out for extension/remedial work several times a week.

In both cases the dcs are very aware as to who is academically clever and who is not.

Meant to add, the other local primary here does not group by ability, but the children seem to be aware of who is academic and who is not anyway.

I think they might in my DS's (Yr 2) class but I am not sure. I know there are three groups for spellings in the class and the list a child takes home depends on which group they are in, and I know DS is being given extension tasks in his maths but I'm not sure if they are on particular tables according to ability.

It is not about clever and not-clever in general, but streaming for a few subjects. The advantage is that the bright ones can do work suited to their ability and the not-so-bright ones (that would be my ds) can be given work that they actually have a chance of coping with. For ds it was a great advantage to be moved away from his mate who was always noticing that ds couldn't do things. Also, these things are not set in stone: ime children frequently move between groups as their needs change. The children who were in top group in Yr 1 are not necessarily the ones that were in top group in Yr 3. Both my children have moved sets more than once.

Yes, and the children know where they stand in the class.

Dd1 has a mixed ability home table and streamed for numeracy and literacy. Dd2 is streamed for everything, same school, different teachers.

The children also have a place where they sit on the carpet. Here, the children are jumbled up, with the chatty children nearer the front. Chattiness does not equate to ability, so quite mixed.

From my memories of a big primary school in the '70's we all had a good idea of everyone else's ability; I could probably tell you about that now.

The other thing is that a lot (all?) schools have adopted 'self-assessment'; the children are expected/encouraged to grade themselves as to their ability/confidence on a particular task, at the end of each session.

My dd needs extra help with things as she is visually impaired, yet she is very very bright, but slow because her lack of vision slows her writing down.
They have ability based tables in their mixed yr1/2 class
DD is yr 2
They move tables for somethings if they are better at other tasks/subjects.
Plus there is a "supergroup" which goes out to work with an experienced TA to get one to one for a few hours a week.
DD is in that but is bored rigid, but I see it as some time out for her

It seems to work ok, DD certainly seems to be the most moved around child there from what I can gather. She is happy with it so therefore by default I am

Yes, it happens - and the children can be top group for one thing, and middling for another, so they'll swap tables. The school tries to avoid labelling the groups as top, middle and bottom, by calling them names (one of my DC is currently 'marge' for spelling, for example), but the kids themselves will tell you what level they're at.

And yes, I hate it when you hear a 6 year old saying that they're in the thick group. But given that there will be different levels in any one class I don't think it's easy to avoid.

yes to ability tables - work is differentiated so they are not all trying to do the same thing at the same pace

My dd's school does this too. She is on the best table for reading and maths, but on the bottom for writing. Her descriptors, not mine.
She is aware, as are her friends of who is a brainbox and who isn't (again her words).

yes

Yes for maths and literacy - I think that's pretty important actually or otherwise pace is too slow / too fast. As other posters have said they all know who's academic and who isn't anyway. They do change groups - some go 'down', others go 'up'. They all have a mixed ability 'home table' which is how they do other stuff such as art, project work etc

Why would you be furious?

The alternative is to have the children with lower ability struggling with work they don't understand, or those more able being given work that is not challenging enough.

It is your job to build your son's self esteem. Point out to him all the things he does so well, and explain that everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

My dd was forever nattering about boy x in her class who was best at this, great at that etc etc.
Then she had a swimming party, during which she discovered boy x was still wearing armbands. She proceeded to reveal this triumphantly to anyone who would listen

It's just a class-sized version of streaming, and is necessary when you've got a really wide range of abilities. I remember at secondary school we were streamed for science and maths but not for english, and I was always frustrated when even at GCSE level some of the other kids in my class could barely read and we were all slowed down in our class groups.