Does your school have separate tables for clever and 'not so clever' children?

[Flightattendant]

Wondering if this is commonplace in primary schools...it was the case when we were small, and everyone know who were the 'clever' children and who was at the other end of the spectrum.
I remember it being awful and nobody from either group ended up changing from that slot all the way through school.

It seems ds's school is doing this as well and he's on the 'rubbish' table (his description of himself)

I am furious that he has been given this idea that he is not good at stuff

Someone mentioned they thought it wasn't allowed any more, but I don't know.

Would appreciate your comments on whether this happens at your child's school or not, and what the thinking is behind it.

Thankyou.

[overmydeadbody]

It's not just a matter of a table for the clever kids and another one for the not so clever, kids are grouped by ability for a lot of teaching, mostly literacy and numeracy, but they shouldn't be aware of their ability compared with other tables.

Teachers have to speerate by ability for effective teaching. The children know where they are compares to others regardless of how they are grouped anyway.

[overmydeadbody]

Are you aure they are actively assuming he is just not bright?

FA there is lots you can do and say to him to help him build up his self confidence. Tell him at every opportunity that to get better at anything requires lots of practice, so if he says he is rubbish at maths, say "you're not rubbish, you just need lots more practice to get better".

Aknowledge to him that he finds maths difficult, or hard, or confusing, if thsi si what he says. Agreeing with a child when they admit something is hard is more supportive of them and their needs thnan just denying it or trying to make them feel better with other platitudes.

The school should be addressing his needs and providing the support he needs to access the curriculum as fully as he is able, not just dismissing him as not clever.

[cory]

It's a fine balance, isn't it? Otoh I did want my ds to be matter-of-fact about the fact that wasn't as good as his mate at reading and writing and maths (because the alternative to "matter-of-fact" would be "terribly upset", "not noticing it" was never an option) - otoh I didn't want him to think it was set in stone- on the third hand, I wanted him to accept that even if this does turn out to be how things are (that you're not very good at school work) that isn't very upsetting either, because you'll find something else you're good at.

And I could not expect a 6yo to use more sophisticated language for the above than "X is clever" and "I'm rubbish at maths". So I had to try not to get upset over that, but to adopt an approach like overmydead's and talk about practice.

[Flightattendant]

Yes you're both right, and I do say all those things but once he is in 'the mood' he will just pout and cross his arms and not listen, so I can't snap him out of it.

Thankfully this doesn't happen too often though.

It is quite a fine line to walk I agree.

[princessparty]

I think parents worry about this a lot more than the kids.
However it is very easy to spot which kids are bright very early on (as opposed to those hothoused) by the kind of ideas they have and how quickly they pick new things up.

[CalpurnicaTate]

princess I don't think you are right about children not worrying about it. I had a group of year fives here yesterday. The children I know talk about which groups they are in all the time and how worried they are about it. One of the children in my house was telling another child in a lower group that he is "rubbish at maths".

Children then take this on as a description of who they are. They think "I am rubbish at maths" and are unlikely to enjoy maths or continue to try. They switch off.

I really don't think it is "easy" to tell if a child is "bright" or not "very early on". There are many different kinds of intelligence. Some children find it difficult to "pick things up" in a noisy environment but are bright. Some children find it difficult to express what they have understood to teachers. Some are late starters. Some are early starters.

Intelligence is not set in stone and it is a shame to give very young children the impression that it is. For example, I am not very good at writing (you can probably tell) as I am dyslexic. At primary school I was always on the bottom table and my parents were told I was "not very bright". I now have a PhD and am considered quite able enough in my field to hold down a very good job. I have never forgotten what it was like to be on that table in school and how it felt.

[amidaiwish]

agree, but what should be done in your opinion? would you suggest that

a) the class is not streamed and the whole class works to one level regardless of ability?

b) the class is "loosely" streamed but not on clear tables, but the work is differentiated (like at my dd's class)

c) the class is streamed on different tables with different levels of work so the teacher can assist appropriately

or another suggestion?

[Flightattendant]

Calpurnica I too remember it vividly and I was on the top' table i hated it...I enjoyed rushing through the work, which WAS the same as what everyone else was doing but we just got given more of it when we had finished, and once the books were completed we were sent to tidy out the stationery cupboard.

But I hated the sense of awkward status that came with it
the sense that most of the kids said we were 'snobs' and 'posh' for being quicker than them

I hated the fact they were such great kids but already had these invisible labels round their necks.

i discussed this again with my mother earlier. She said there WA an alternative and it was around in the 1960s. it was child-focused education and it meant that nobody had a grouping or a set, they did do work but it was incidental...they were self-motivated and a lot of it was learning through play.
She said this was a fashion for a brief period back then, and only in some schools, but it was the ideal.

I wonder what happened to that then...govt targets perhaps?

It's not that I want my kid on the top table with all the other 'snobs'
I don't want ANY of the kids to be on that bottom table. It's just got such a wrong feeling about it. Children don't question if the teacher has got it wrong, they accept their position in a trusting manner which is why the equanimity when describing themselves as rubbish.

I dunno but I am actually swinging back to how I was feeling in my OP.

Maybe we need to find a different school, or HE. Will see what she comes up with in response to letter...not had an answer yet.

[Flightattendant]

sorry for typos am bfing! WAS that should be.

[CalpurnicaTate]

I think b

However, I do accept this is not an easy problem to deal with in group enducation. If you were teaching a child one to one it would be easier .

A child who is not good a mental arithmetic may be gifted with 3D shapes. A child who has poor writing skills may be a gifted verbal poet. I think most teachers do recognise this but streaming by subject makes it hard to allow for this. Loosely streaming at least gives children the possibility of movement etc. It may give a child the opportunity to shine on a particular day/aspect of a subjet. If children are more locked into their groups and teachers/parents/children label them as "not bright" and "bright" this is where the problems set in.

In general I think schools are better now at recognising the wide variety of talents that children have and that is quite a challenge with 30 in the class.

Not being a teacher I don't have any suggestions myself. Maybe it is not a problem that can be solved. However, I also think it would be wrong to suggest that putting children on ability tables is something that they do not notice. They do notice, especially when they are given names like Comets Stars Planets Meteorites. Which ones do you think are moving fastest at this stage ?

[CalpurnicaTate]

sorry x post flight

[CalpurnicaTate]

Your mums suggestion sounds brilliant.

[princessparty]

Calpurnia- we are in a grammar school catchment and I bet i could tell you know which reception children in 6 years time will pass (only tested on VR and NVR) and which won't and I won't be far off !

[CalpurnicaTate]

princess - the thing is they won't be the "bright" ones not in my opinion.
Being good at NVR and VR questions is a matter of coaching.

[amidaiwish]

well b does seem to work ok in dd's school and even though she would be on the top table, i much prefer this loose streaming.

[princessparty]

At the school my DS1 used to go to they let the children steam themselves each lesson.So say for example they were learning about adding decimals the teacher would teach the whole year group (there were only about 10 of them) and produce differentuiated work sheets and the children could choose themselves which level they felt confident at and I think iot was really good for the kids to manage their own learning like that

[amidaiwish]

fine in theory princess but you get many children who are over-confident and many under confident. from helping in DDs class i can see that many boys think they can do everything and many girls are less sure, but when encouraged they can do it. A generalisation maybe but i was quite surprised by it, first noticed in reception and still evident now in year 1 (though less so i think).

[princessparty]

To be fair these were Y4 upwards.

[CalpurnicaTate]

princess I was thinking of something along those lines but like amid says I can imagine some of them being over/under confident or even a bit lazy. I think it would be better that way though. I cannot imagine managing 30 childrens work it must be a huge challenge.

[claig]

I think there can be a problem with managing your own learning. Not all kids are motivated to bother stretching themselves. I was bright at school, but I would most probably have chosen to have an easy time of it and stay on a table with my friends and do the least possible.

[NoahAndTheWhale]

DS is in Y1 and I really don't know if they have ability groups or not. He is doing work to his ability, so it is all right.

Might try and subtly find out from him whether they do work in different groups.

[Pitchounette]

Message withdrawn

[CalpurnicaTate]

Anyway, I have to get back to work, good luck Flight. In a way I am glad to hear that the top table was not the heaven that I thought it was .At least I didn't have to clean out cupboards ! Wishing your DS every happiness for the future.

[gorionine]

I missed a lot of the thread, just wanted to say that really like SE13Mummy making a difference between "ability" and "performance", I would not have thought about it myself but when she pointed at it I thought yes, it is really important to distinguish between the two!

[Flightattendant]

Thanks Calpurnica

and everybody...

teacher has asked me to meet with her tomorrow after school, so will report back!

I think I need to do some revision of what it is I actually want to say though.She is very professional. [scared]