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Does your school have separate tables for clever and 'not so clever' children?

131 replies

Flightattendant · 20/01/2010 10:27

Wondering if this is commonplace in primary schools...it was the case when we were small, and everyone know who were the 'clever' children and who was at the other end of the spectrum.
I remember it being awful and nobody from either group ended up changing from that slot all the way through school.

It seems ds's school is doing this as well and he's on the 'rubbish' table (his description of himself)

I am furious that he has been given this idea that he is not good at stuff

Someone mentioned they thought it wasn't allowed any more, but I don't know.

Would appreciate your comments on whether this happens at your child's school or not, and what the thinking is behind it.

Thankyou.

OP posts:
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SE13Mummy · 21/01/2010 19:32

FA, I'd definitely advise making a written list of your concerns so that you don't get sidetracked.

It would also be a good idea to ask her to explain how the table set-up works and mention how glum your son is feeling about it and how worried you are that he has seemingly written himself off.

Hopefully she will be able to come up with some ideas as to how she'll help improve his self-esteem but will also commit to doing some work with the whole class on strengths (there are some excellent ideas in the SEAL resources especially the unit 'it's good to be me' ).

Good luck!

Flightattendant · 21/01/2010 20:34

Oh thankyou those are great tips...I'll mention the SEAL thing too.
I spoke to another mum who said that this teacher takes the groups and so on very seriously and her son had moved up a couple of groups in a year, she was keen on finding out exactly what each child is good at and working with that to make them more confident.

Hope that's the case, obviously his difficulties and strengths have been somewhat hidden thus far but now we have an inkling of what's there, we should be able to make a plan.

Nice to have an inside perspective too, thanks!

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tikkapots · 22/01/2010 06:47

When you child says they are on the rubbish table, could it mean that he is simply not sitting with his choice of friends?

Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 10:01

Naw, but thanks for the idea...he really likes everyone on his table, in fact I think he likes everyone in the class! Socially it's not a problem.

He told me last night that he had been crying, or almost, in every ICT lesson so far

He said he is the slowest at typing, and mimed how slow he is, and said everyone is faster and he never finishes in time and is afraid he'll get left behind, and/or have to stay in at playtime to finish.

I don't think it's even the playtime bit that really bugs him, it's that feeling like evryone has got on the bus and it's leaving the bus stop without you.

Last night he was really upset about it. I told him I WILL be able to do something about that and he will never have a scary ICT lesson again.

Seeing teacher at 3.15...will take list!!

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amidaiwish · 22/01/2010 11:11

good luck today. your ds is lucky to have you.

Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 12:39

it is that memory of crying at school, and nobody noticing, and the fear...I hate to think he has already been experiencing this.
It makes me feel barbaric for sending him there.

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Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 12:40

..which is possibly a slight overreaction

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GrungeBlobPrimpants · 22/01/2010 13:15

Good luck Flight!

SE13Mummy · 22/01/2010 13:29

I've been hunting for my all-time favourite SEAL activity which I know is called the 'wall of fame' and sounds perfect for your son (to do at home if not at school) but I can't locate it

Basically it involves others writing down 3 or 4 things that he's really good at (when I've done this with whole classes I've got children to write a single compliment about every other child on their table so each child ends up with 3 or 4 nice things). At school I get the target child to choose a massive piece of paper and thick marker pen to 'write up' the compliments (Y5&6 will go to town on doing graffiti style writing, bubble writing etc) and then have a photograph taken with them holding their compliments sheet. Photo is printed out and the children then make elaborate and intricate fake Tudor-esque frames using card, Crayola model magic (but you could use dried pasta) and copious amounts of PVA glue. Frames are painted in gold/silver poster pain (mix with some pva to make it stick) to make them look authentic and the photograph is mounted in the frame.

The compliments range from; he tells really funny jokes to he can use a protractor accurately (!?) and she always plays with me if I'm lonely in the playground to she's the best speller in the class. One child tried to include something about another producing the smelliest farts but I did veto that one.

The key is to be specific so "he's brilliant at making lego models" is better than "he's good at making stuff" which isn't particularly personal.

It is a bit of a schooly activity to do at home but it's good for a self-esteem boost when others identify things you are good at whilst you're down in the dumps about other things.

Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 13:42

Oh that sounds wonderful as a school based activity...funnily enough we did do a version of that at bedtime last night!

He kept saying he was worried and anxious and needed to talk about school, and so he told me the ICT thing, and we spoke a bit more about why he is slow and the dyslexia and so on...he asked 'is dyslexia a bad thing then?' and I said 'No, it just is a different way of seeing and lots of people in the world have it...just the world was organised by people who didn't have it, so it makes it harder for you. But there are ways to make it easy again and school will do these with you and you'll be on the purple table in no time'.

We then did a thing where we thought of things he WOULD be on the purple table for...such as lego, and making people laugh, and running fast...thought of quite a few things, we then did it for his little bro, as in 'ds2 would be on the purple table for being smelly' etc etc which made him roar with laughter.

I hope it got the message across slightly anyway! better if they did it asap at school though, it would really boost him.

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Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 13:43

also said dyslexia means he is likely to be better at practical stuff, which I hope is the case

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SE13Mummy · 22/01/2010 13:52

Any good?

www.xtraordinarypeople.com/celebrity/

support4dyslexia.co.uk/FamousDyslexi cs.aspx

Flightattendant · 22/01/2010 16:21

Oh FANTASTIC!!! Many many thanks...I had not thought of that!

He will be WELL chuffed!

Just back from der Schule.
She was very very nice. I think I asked most of my questions, but she was mainly talking as they do...said he is having extra help, and will have more (not sure how much is now in place due to recent developments, and what already was) and that she was surprised with the dyslexia thing, there are 7 or 8 kids in the class with definite issues and she said it was very clear to her, but not with ds. So will see how he develops.
She is going to move him up a table, as he has progressed so well where he is, and we spoke about the tables system and I think agreed it was OK.
We also discussed the ICT/typing problem and she said he had been upset when another TA was teaching them and this tA had now had a nice talk with him and it was all sorted...
fingers crossed!
Apart from that, he seemed happy, said she is the best teacher ever once we had extracted him and his brother from the broom cupboard Real life Intergalactic Rocket interior where she had inspiringly thought to place them whilst we talked!

All in all I think we are sorted.
She is genuinely very nice. Will monitor ds's moods for a while and see how he goes. She said she would hate to think he was that negative about himself and always encourages him to tell her if he is upset/worried.

I know he won't always dare to say anything but at least she has the right attitude!

Thanks again for all your support...off to look up some of ds's heroes on that link

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loler · 22/01/2010 16:47

Just had a brief read through this thread - I wanted to say that I did the child centred learning that FA's mum mentioned. For me it didn't work. What I remember of it - we had a timetable of sorts - basically a list of subjects (maths, handwriting, creative writing, art, music sort of thing), the class was open plan and you went to the area put aside for the subject next on the list.

so if maths was next on the timetable, I would go to maths corner, get my workbook out of the box and work my way through the cards there at my on speed. Teachers were around but didn't really interfer too much. For things like art and creative writing the whole class would eventually do the same projects over the week (not all at the same time).

At the end of the day you went to your home corner with your home teacher and fed back what you'd done over the day. I remember always being tutted at for not moving on quickly enough (I was a complete day dreamer and never asked for help) - It's left me doing exactly the same as an adult - day dream/faff about for hours - do 15mins hard work before a deadline. We still knew who the clever ones were (I went to this school from age 7-11, it was brand new and I guess trying new methods).

And to finish this mamoth post - my dcs school does have clever tables - I hate it, the idea of streaming this early is awful. The tables are called different names - last year they were shapes - the thick table was the squares and this year they are fruits with the thick table being lemons . DD is on the slower table and she has already started saying things about not being as good as her best friend. OK rant over!

amidaiwish · 22/01/2010 17:25

well that sounds pretty positive FA. keep us posted and good luck. sounds like she is pretty reasonable and good news that she recognised he needs to move up a table.

busymummy3 · 22/01/2010 23:27

children as young as y2 know where they are in the class. my dd tells me she is on the top table (blue) teacher has confirmed to me at parents evening she is in top 6 of class(there are 30 in class)I asked DD how she reckoned she was on the top table -her reply?

  1. we are all on paperbacks
  2. we all get same maths to do and the other tables are easy peasy and its not fair cos if I got their maths I would get a longer play time!
IAmTheEasterBunny · 22/01/2010 23:53

I think it's very important, even with my Y2 class, to emphasise that even the brightest children can improve their work. I think, because of that (even though the children will have a clear knowledge of who can write and who can't) there is a culture of self-improvement within the class rather than a 'top' table and a 'bottom' table.

Cortina · 25/01/2010 08:22

Agree with Easter Bunny. 'Intelligence' isn't fixed it's expandable, for everyone. Being 'bright' is also as much to do with determination and self discipline as intellect. Studies are increasingly showing this.

I am not a fan of 'streaming' in the early years. Ideally the curriculum should be tailored to each individual child but appreciate that resources usually make this difficult or impossible.

If they must sit in 'streamed' tables I prefer these to be about current attainment levels rather than inherent perceived ability and for all concerned to realise this on every level.

Problem is It's a human tendency to attribute stable characteristics to other people especially if there is inadequate information. Teachers have enormously complex lives and need to impose some order on a mass of personalities and interaction. This is how 'labels' can come about and once bestowed I believe they can be very sticky, limiting and dangerous.

For example it might be thought 'Jason's a little terror' or 'Louise is easily upset'. This might be expanded upon so that Jason is not only troublesome but 'very bright'. Louise is 'weak' as well as emotionally fragile and David's helpful but quite average. Particular heed is paid to children's achievements in high status subjects like English and Maths which maybe assessed over quite short periods.

All this is coupled with whether children are perceived as being fast or slow on the uptake and generally obliging or a bit rebellious.

Once judgements are made it is rare they are rescinded. Studies have shown it is a rare for a bright child to be re-categorised on a basis of a run of poor results as it is for a 'weak' child to be upgraded if goes on to do well.

Often it will be said that the 'bright' child is not fulfilling their potential and some reason found for it, getting in the with children who are a bad influence etc, etc. The over achieving 'weak' child will probably be credited with a surge of effort not an increase in 'ability'.

Haven't you heard people repeating that so and so is naughty but bright even seemingly without any evidence? etc I know I have. I seems to become the collective view of the class and community after a while.

I go in to help and see these 'ability' tables in action. I've noticed Parent helpers/assistants etc seem to speak more slowly to the 'bottom' table and take extra care and time. Perhaps not a bad thing and I think it might even be subconcious on their part.

I've seen children at the 'top' table anxious to show me how good they already are (again maybe not a bad thing) but confident learners have courage, given the choice they'd rather learn than display what they can do. This is the goal I hope to work towards with my own kids.

From what I've seen the children on the 'bottom' tables are trying to get to the top, they want to be on the top reading books etc and are inherently ambitious. Again perhaps not a bad thing? But I'd rather do away with it all and tell they children they can do anything and see what happens.

I'm so interested in this. Reading at the moment about the 'pygmalion effect'. Studies have shown that when an 'average' child is told they are 'gifted and talented' and moved into such a group their 'performance' increases.

Another study was done where primary school teachers were told that their pupils were being tested to ascertain who had the most potential and highest IQ. They then fed incorrect results back to the teachers and picked two children at random and said these were the highest performers. Guess what? The chosen children's performance and tested IQ increased enormously over time. It's about the 'messages' the children receive and this to my mind isn't good news for any of them.

Feenie · 25/01/2010 18:12

"Ideally the curriculum should be tailored to each individual child but appreciate that resources usually make this difficult or impossible."
Not really - the Every Child Matters agenda and personalised learning have changed this view in most schools. Most teachers are interested in trying to ensure each child achieves the very best that they can.

"Problem is It's a human tendency to attribute stable characteristics to other people especially if there is inadequate information. Teachers have enormously complex lives and need to impose some order on a mass of personalities and interaction. This is how 'labels' can come about and once bestowed I believe they can be very sticky, limiting and dangerous.

For example it might be thought 'Jason's a little terror' or 'Louise is easily upset'. This might be expanded upon so that Jason is not only troublesome but 'very bright'. Louise is 'weak' as well as emotionally fragile and David's helpful but quite average"
Possibly the biggest load of hooey I've read on MN for a long time, particularlt the sentence beginning 'Teachers have enormously complex lives'.

"Once judgements are made it is rare they are rescinded. Studies have shown it is a rare for a bright child to be re-categorised on a basis of a run of poor results as it is for a 'weak' child to be upgraded if goes on to do well."
Quite the contrary - in KS1, especially, groups are very fluid. What 'studies' are these?

"If they must sit in 'streamed' tables I prefer these to be about current attainment levels rather than inherent perceived ability and for all concerned to realise this on every level."
I would imagine that they are, as in most schools, and that teacher assessment is carried out frequently, and using a variety of methods - if not, maybe you should change schools?

Doobydoo · 25/01/2010 19:40

When my son was at hs primary school.He was at table for 'bright'children.As far as I can tell they were basically ignored.He is now home edded until secondary school in Sept.I am sorry OP that your son has said he is at the rubbish table.That is very sad.

Doobydoo · 25/01/2010 19:41

Just saw your last post.So glad you are getting it sorted

Tortington · 25/01/2010 19:43

yes, the was a shape or a colour.

it wasn't anything overt - but it took a matter of days before the kids and parents worked out the broght , normal, thick kids are.

bullshit man, total bullshit - way to start out LIFE - there you go little boy - your thick. your 5

mrz · 25/01/2010 20:35

No children have different seats for different activities

claig · 25/01/2010 20:37

Custardo, it seems that it is never too early to differentiate ,

apparently they can also spot future criminals from the age of 3
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-110461/Identify-future-criminals-age--Blunkett.html

soon there will be "cosa nostra" tables in the classroom, where the future little Capones and Corleones will shade in drawings of their future heists

lou031205 · 25/01/2010 21:39

You could tell him the story of Fred Epstein

He was an amazing man who had dyslexia (died in 2006), couldn't even write well enough to study, but used tape recorders instead. He became a pioneering neurosurgeon for children.

I read about him in the Readers' Digest when I was a teenager, and his story was so inspiring.