Does your school have separate tables for clever and 'not so clever' children?

[Flightattendant]

Wondering if this is commonplace in primary schools...it was the case when we were small, and everyone know who were the 'clever' children and who was at the other end of the spectrum.
I remember it being awful and nobody from either group ended up changing from that slot all the way through school.

It seems ds's school is doing this as well and he's on the 'rubbish' table (his description of himself)

I am furious that he has been given this idea that he is not good at stuff

Someone mentioned they thought it wasn't allowed any more, but I don't know.

Would appreciate your comments on whether this happens at your child's school or not, and what the thinking is behind it.

Thankyou.

[GrungeBlobPrimpants]

Good luck Flight

You may have to nag about the IEP though - I was concerned from Y1 that ds was possibly dyslexic (turned out he wasn't, but v late developer). He didn't get IEP until Y2 when had brilliant teacher who said he should have been on one months before. Once you get that it opens doors to further help.

Just a word of warning - schools don't always take note of private dxs and you end up having to go through the LEA system all over again, its a right PITA (sorry you probably know all that anyway)

[OtterInaSkoda]

The situation at ds's school is much the same as MattSmithIsNotMyLoveSlave describes. Works well as far as I can see, but requires a fair bit of effort and expertise on the teacher's part. Much streaming seems clumsy and lazy imo.

[KateF]

Unfortunately this is a real problem with schools. I have a bright dyslexic 8 year old dd who is constantly working with children of lower ability because of her writing and spelling difficulties. It upsets and frustrates her but she cannot have a TA to help her on any of the higher tables so we have had to accept it. I have to say it really turns her off school . Provision for dyslexic children is appalling in this country.

[ByThePowerOfGreyskull]

Our school has 3 different activities that are "streamed" DS1 knows he is a lorry for maths, a pineapple for english and I can't remember the other one.
I am very pleased with this as it means that he is getting work more targetted to his ability. He is very clever with maths and is doing very well in the top group but finds english boring so they are working on helping him with his writing and reading skills.

[Flightattendant]

Grunge thankyou for making me aware of that - no, I didn't know! Gosh. I hope they take it seriously. his teacher knows of the specialist we went to, as several kids from the school go to her for one-to-one during school hours. She's BDA etc etc.

Gawd I hope we don't have to wait even longer for another dx.

Kate, that sounds horrid for your dd. That's the thing - dyslexic children aren't thick. They're usually not below average...even ds's writing skills are on the 55th centile, and I didn't think he was very good at it.

Can't think why that justifies him being in the lowest group unless everyone else in the class is super brilliant.

The only real problem they might have is processing information, and expressing it (I think this is correct)
so it's like being trapped inside a cage.
It must feel awful to know you are not getting your point across despite having it all going on in your head.

It isn't that I care where he is in the class, but I care if he is being told he is one thing, and it isn't true. iyswim

[IneedacleanerIamalazyslattern]

Flightattendant the school is fantastic I could go on for hours about all the things they do.
I would be devastated if the head left TBH as she has worked really hard to achieve what she has despite massive council budget cuts every year.
I was so scared when we moved towns as I was moving dd from a school that was fab but this one is even better.
I had 4 to choose from and visited this one first and never even looked at the others and i'm so glad I didn't.
DS has just started the nursery there and has been having trouble settling so they even took him to see his big sister for a cuddle yesterday so he could see how close by she is to him.

[Flightattendant]

Ineed, it does sound fantastic

I wish we had a school like that!

[slim22]

yes

Year 1.

5 groups for literacy and 5 for numeracy.

I understand it's easier from the teacher's perspective, but quite awful for the little ones to be "labeled" so early.

[mimsum]

they work in different ability groupings for literacy and maths and random groupings for topic so they're always switching around

you could have one child who's very good at maths but not so quick to get going at writing for example so will be in different groups for all three

ds2 started off in y1 in the bottom literacy group and the top maths group and has now worked his way up to being in the top for both so it's by no means set in stone

in dd's class (y2) there are kids who literally can't read a 3 word sentence alongside children who're reading Narnia and writing complicated stories - I don't see it would be fair to either end of the spectrum to be made to do the same work - dd complains enough about being bored and stuff being too easy as it is

[piprabbit]

My DDs school do some form of streaming using different tables for different tasks. My DD has been moved to the second table for maths and all was fine until she told me that it's Ok because she doesn't have to work very hard on that table .
She's 6 and I've found it very hard trying to explain that you feel really proud of yourself when you work at something hard, even if you don't get it all right - and that you don't feel proud if you know you haven't been trying your best.

[SE13Mummy]

As a teacher I use a mixture of all sorts of arrangements in class; friendship groups, performance groups (what you're all calling ability but I think of it as performance rather than ability), gender groups, interest groups etc. etc. depending on what we're learning and what I (and often the children) think will work best.

So, sometimes in literacy it works best for me to have the most independent writers working together but on other occasions that's the last thing I want. My TA isn't limited to working with 'lower performers', sometimes he'll work with a mixed group, sometimes 1:1 or 1:2, and at least once a week with the higher performers. I like mixing up the groups because I think it's beneficial for the children to see that those they perceive as being 'not so clever' etc. etc. are in fact as worthwhile as they themselves are and no-one should ever write off someone else because of skewed perceptions.

Regardless of where a child sits in my classroom the work is differentiated and the children know that they are given work that I believe is appropriate to them. If they feel I've got it wrong they are welcome to tell me and we'll work together to see if they should in fact be doing something else. School should be about having a fun and active learning experience, not pigeon-holing children and limiting them

My own 4-year-old came home from Reception last term to tell me she was being taught by Mrs X for phonics... yes, they were being streamed for phonics only a few weeks into their school career. Whilst it suited my DD (who spends her life playing teachers and aspires to being a teacher and a Mummy when she's a grown-up) I felt incredibly uncomfortable that not only was the teaching so very formal but also that it was divisive at such an early age. Thankfully a vacancy came up at 'my' school so we've moved her

[Flightattendant]

I think you have the right ideas SE13,

may I ask what year group you teach?

I understand that ds is capable of much more than he is being asked, but I'm not sure he would think to 'tell you' if he felt he was in the wrong group...he just accepts that he is there because he is 'not good at stuff' iyswim.

Would you be upsetif a parent came to you and asked for her child to be moved, or at least considered more capable than at first seems apparent?

Also is it common for a child with dyslexia to be thought of as just a non performer rather than someone with an expressive hinderance, despite a great little brain?

I'd be interested in what you think, I appreciate your insight! Thanks.

[SE13Mummy]

I usually teach Y5 or Y6 but have taught everything except nursery.

Being able to tell a teacher that you (as a child) thinks they've got it wrong has more to do with the teacher than the child... I like them to think of me as a human and explain that even teachers sometimes make mistakes but, because recognising mistakes helps us learn, I need them to tell me if I don't notice. It's backed up by all sorts of things e.g. letting them self-select the maths activities they do at the start of a topic, giving them a choice of literacy objectives to work on etc. so even if a child didn't specifically say, "Mrs SE13 this is too easy I want to do some harder work" I would soon notice that he was choosing things that I mightn't have thought to select for him.

Personally I would never be upset if a parent came to talk to me about how their child was doing at school; that's part of my job. However, a parent who asked for their child to be moved mightn't always get the response they hoped for because there is usually a reason for a child to be sitting in a particular place and because the seating is so fluid it would be odd for me to move a child when the real issue was the work s/he was being set. What I would do would be to seek to reassure you that I'd spend some time looking at the work your son was doing and would make a concerted effort to push him to select more tricky things if I thought that he was under-selling himself. I'd also arrange to e-mail you regularly or to meet you the following week to see if our chat had made a difference to how you felt or if we needed to try a different tack.

That's just me though! Not all teachers are the same, not all schools are the same and not all interested parents are happy to trust a teacher's judgement.

With regards to the dyslexia thing, the attitude you've described is a very out-of-date one. I can't think of a single teacher that I know that would be short-sighted enough to think that a child who struggles with written expression is therefore going to struggle with verbal expression/ideas/different concepts! It's a bit like the old school of thought that suggested children with EAL had special needs because they didn't speak English.

[Blu]

Yes, but it's v subtle.
They have a home group - friends / a good mix of loud and subdued, whatever.
They are on particular tables for literacy, then after play, different particular tables for maths, then again in the afternoon for other topics - and I think in the afternoon it is not ability-based.
It seems to work well, and I have never heard DS or any of his (wide ranging ability) friends refer to it as an issue. I mean they moan about being next to anyone who is 'annoying', of any perceived ability.

[prettybird]

ds is in P5 (equivalent to Y4) and since early in P1, he has sat in mixed ability groups for "general" lessons (eg "Topic", "RME" - Relgious & Moral Education, etc) so that is "his" seat and then moves into different groups, based on ability, for when they do language and numeracy.

They aren't called the "top", "middle" and "bottom" groups, but the kids know which the different names (whether it is shapes, musical instruments or whatever) represent.

[princessparty]

At our school they seem to be put in ability groups for reading , spelling and maths.I think writing is mixed ability because they can all be set the same task but the more able they are the higher the quality of their work.
I noticed within a couple of weeks of starting the reception intake had ben divided into 2 ability groups for reading

[amidaiwish]

i have just quizzed DD over dinner! she is in Y1 in a high achieving state primary.

she is on "parrots" table which is definitely mixed ability. this is her "home" table but they also do their work in these groups. These groups are changed every half term, mostly due to dynamics rather than ability from what i can see.

they did maths today, "ten more than, ten less than". she had hard ones. others on her table had easy ones. some had some easy/some hard. so clearly given different level of work, but not on separate tables.

it seems to be working well for her class. but from what i have heard from mums with children higher up the school, the streaming does become more overt towards Y2.

[Goblinchild]

I have set groups for maths and literacy but there is movement within them when appropriate, and the class mixes in different ways throughout the week. My TA and I move around and all groups get support within the week.
Just as an aside, could you consider the possibility of it being demoralising if you are doing your work, addition and subtraction to 20 say, and a couple of other children on your table are coping with 4 digit numbers, decomposition and decimal fractions?
Or you are there with your word list and writing frame, happily constructing your third sentence and then you notice that the person next to you is on their third extended paragraph with a fluent joined script?
Or they won't stop trying to 'help' you when you are stuck?

[amidaiwish]

i see your point goblinchild, but i don't think kids are that black & white.

dd1 said "x's were easy, but he thought they were a bit tricky so i helped him, i showed him how i used the abacus"

maybe that is part of the teacher's plan? don't know. if kids are brought up to respect each other they are all aware of their different skills and abilities. they spend 6 hours/day 5 days/week for more than half of the year, for 7 years.

[mimsum]

dd gets very annoyed because the kids on her table keep asking her the answers to maths problems and how to spell words

She feels she has to help them as she wants to be polite, but says it interferes with her own work and also because they know she'll have got the right answer, they don't try themselves before asking her

[heQet]

I think they do. They do it by colours. Yellow table, for example. I have no idea which colour is what level though.

[TheFallenMadonna]

Ishe upset by it, or matter of fact? I ask because DS used to be ont he second to bottom literacy table, because he was 'rubbish' at writing. And actually he was rubbish at writing. He's improved, but at the time his handwriting was without doubt the worst in his class, and he only made it off the bottom because he is a good reader. He is however on the top table for maths, so I think the setting by subject rather than streaming across the board helped him to understand his strengths and weaknesses.

[oldenglishspangles]

we have coloured tables a dcs school. All the children which table is the 'brightest' table. children may be on different coloured tables for different topics though.

[Goblinchild]

So, I have 32 children in my class whose abilities vary so widely that I differentiate most subjects to three levels, but maths and literacy skills to five.
How do you suggest I best support my Able children? SEN? Middle ability? Higher ability? if they are scattered like confetti around the room. Better to be pitching your support to a group at the same level.
The groups are named after animals, authors and the like. The children chose the names. Yes, of course they know who can do what, just like in every other aspect of their lives. The skill is to ensure that everyone knows that they are good at something and can tell you what that is.

[Flightattendant]

He is upset about being what he calls 'rubbish' but matter of fact about which group he is in. I don't want him to be matter of fact about being 'no good at stuff'...it almost implies he has accepted that this is is fate in life, not that it's just a slower subject at the moment for him.

Transpires he is on the second bottom table for maths, which helps...

Reading this thread I am more of the opinion that it might be better, if they are going to compare work at all, to be on a different table. My problem is with his self esteem relating to this. I don't know if the other kids have had a go or not, but it makes me feel sick when he tells me how bad he is at is work.

Maybe this problem is fundamentally a group learning one, ie more about school than about the teaching method.
I will certainly disregard the tables/groups thing when I meet with his teacher, and focus on the fact they have missed the fact he is so capable, and missed his dyslexia, and are evidently assuming he's just not bright. And that he feels bad about it.

thankyou for helping me see that there isn't a simple solution to the group thing and that it can work OK if the groups are kept fluid.
I do wonder how my mother can be so vehemently opposed to this system yet consider HE to be the work of the devil...