What will it take for the Government to enact welfare reform?

[Schlossadler]

What has to break, before the Government is finally willing to enact welfare reform?

You aren't accounting for the massive drop in standards of living that is about to occur for a hell of a lot of people because

Events.

"My era"? What are you on about?

Did you mean to quote me or someone else? Because your reply is a non-sequitur.

That is the logical conclusion of demanding that everyone live within their means.

I think then, though, the whole conversation about benefits and vouchers will change because - in the event of the kind of catastrophe you’re talking about, which I also believe is entirely plausible - so many people will be in hardship, that it’s unlikely those on benefits will be othered in quite the same way.

That might be the case but I don’t think the money is there. Borrowing is out, which leaves tax hikes but they are causing issues already with loss of jobs.

Tax wealth. Tax those earning passive income through asset
hoarding. They don’t need all that money. The worst that will happen is they might decide to sell some assets. Great. Redistribution.

What are you defining as wealth.
What are you defining as asset hoarding?

The tax take from income tax is 331 billion. Welfare costs are 333 billion. A previous poster thought this is sustainable - I don't.

The UK would become an investment leper - corporates would leave, sterling would plummet, gilt yields would spike, there would be a jobs bloodbath.

If you want communism, try Pyongyang.

As already pointed out, we've been spending the same percentage of our national income on working age welfare for the last 5 decades (around 4.8%). We have managed to sustain this spending through a wide variety of economic circumstances - booms, busts, the lot. To say this is unsustainable when we've been sustaining it for 50 odd years is a strange argument to make. Again see the interview that Jonathan Portes did with Sky News spelling this out - he was Chief Economist at the Department for Work and Pensions from 2002 to 2008 and Chief Economist at the Cabinet Office from 2008 to 2011.

It's only pension spending that's going up because there are more pensioners but this has been kept in check by increasing the pension age. Overall the increase in welfare spending has been modest.

That it's more than the income tax take is neither here nor there. The total uk tax take is vastly higher than just income tax.

@dowagerqueenieand working age welfare would increase if the age of retirement increases

I don’t doubt that welfare does need reforming as we cannot afford it as it stands. However until we do something about the fucked up system where the chief exec of Tesco is paid 10.8 million a year while a customer service rep is paid 23000 and needs universal credit to pay rent I would like them to start with ridiculous corporate exec pay and tax dodging millionaires. Does the chief exec really work 470 times harder? It is not like he risked his capital to start the business. Most of that 10.8 million is probably also paid in stock so you can bet he isn’t paying 45% tax either.

It hasn't so far overall but parts of it are almost definitely rising on account of this. As you raise the retirement age, more of those people nearing retirement in poor health are forced on to disability benefits if they can't continue to work due to failing health. This has been cancelled out by reduced spending in other areas of benefits that are never mentioned and barely measured from what I understand. The fact that people are divorcing much later means that the state is not incurring the costs of so many single parent families for example.

But has our Net debt compared to GDP always been hovering around 95%? Or is that just a new thing?

An electronic voucher system could work reasonably well. When I get to the till at Tesco it automatically apply any applicable voucher. Your account hold yours voucers and as you scan them it deducts them from your entitlement.

As for cars and washing machine. You will have some cash so you just need to budget of that.

During the second world war people made ration books work, so its hardly a new concept. And when the next war comes, I suspect there will be some form of rationing again and most of us will cut our cloth accordingly.

As for making choices, most of us have to make choices/sacrifice even if we are not on benefits. Its not exactly unique to people on benefits.

Certain benefits are to help with your living/basic living costs. If you are offended by the help don't take them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union

See my PP re. What I would do.

What makes you entitled to their wealth? It’s very greedy of you. Why don’t you just generate your own wealth?

also, how do you know they don’t need their income and wealth? It’s very presumptuous of you.

I support 1 penny more that they have and any assets they don’t have (yet are jealous of).

That does seem to be the criteria these days.

Debt was relatively low prior to Covid from what I understand and has not risen because of welfare spending unless you count the massive sums paid to more or less everyone during the lock downs (so all cohorts of society - welfare recipients did not receive significantly more than they would always have received - it was the wealthier who did). It has risen further because of international pressures and events that have nothing or almost nothing to do with welfare recipients. As I pointed out, working age welfare spending as a percentage of GDP has remained more or less the same for the last 50 years. We haven't had to take on massive debts to pay for it, they have arisen for other reasons.

Jealous? you’re more than a tinge of green.

let them pay CEOs what they want to pay CEOs. Clearly they are happy to and feel it’s worth. Government doesn’t need to get involvement in capping pay, that’s just ridiculous.

if someone wants to earn what a CEO earns they’re very much able to please themselves and go for it.

re. “Harder” it’s subjective. Would the customer rep be happy going in front of politicians, investors, media? Would they be happy to have to think about complex problems independent of the time of day and their work never ends.

the upside for the customer service rep is that their work starts at the first beep and they can stop thinking about it after the last beep…

But should this wealth be used for their own care?

Sorry but you’re either not thinking clearly or struggling to keep up. I’ve answered what I think you’re getting at (should people find their own care) previously.