How to deal with DS5 hitting dd9?

[TrollRoad]

When DS5 is upset he gets violent and often his sister9 bears the brunt of it. He hits, kicks, bites, scratches or throws things. She usually screams or cries but she won't hit back as she doesn't want him to get hurt.

We remove him immediately and then tend to DD to check if she's ok. He's usually quite upset and scared himself after hitting anyone so I do hug him and tell him I love him and that we are there for him. He obviously feels bad but he refuses to apologise or even ask DD if she's ok. We have explained to him time and time again that hitting or any other form of violence is not ok and that we won't accept it. He gets an automatic TV ban for violence but I doubt that in that moment when he's in a rage he is actually capable of stopping himself from being violent.

DD always forgives him and often makes the first move to make up again but I am so scared that eventually this will affect their relationship or that he will grow up to be a violent person.

When he's not upset he is of course lovely and then I think he will eventually grow out of it but what if he doesn't? Besides till that happens DD has a right to be safe at all times.

They usually get on well and in spite the age gap still play nicely together (though DS has lashed out before as well. Actually every time he gets upset) but the holidays have just forced them to spend too much time with each other. Also, DH and me have no leave left so are working full time (grand parents are at home with the kids or they go to holiday clubs), which probably doesn't help.

Any advice? Does anyone have experience of this? What helped? Equally important, what didn't help?

You also need to be able to explain to your daughter’s school what you are doing to protect her when he causes bruises that are noticed by teachers and she is asked what has happened to her. This may include the school making a report to the appropriate authorities

I have a big issue with apologizing - so
many dc just parrot out the words but don’t mean a word of it. It’s like calling a referee “sir” in rugby and then doing a tackle that could seriously injure an opponent. The words mean nothing and it’s faux respect.

Why is your dd so passive? I’d not want her to fight but she needs to get angry with him. She’s being the typical female who takes the brunt of poor male behaviour.

You are treating him as the favoured boy! Seen it time and time again. Girls are stoical and the awful boy gets all the attention and just repeat the bad behaviour because nothing much happens that matters . Then gets all the cuddles and sympathy! It ends up being very annoying and the boys don’t learn! They end up being annoying at school too because they just get away with everything at home. So doing something is vital.

First of all make it clear your dd does not have to put up with this and she should come first. Do you really want her accepting violence as the norm? She’s got to learn how to push him away. She needs to be separated from him if he’s tired and you need to get him tired. He’s not like this in term time, so there’s the clue. Keep him busy and you must regain his respect. This means no fighting etc in your house and you stick to it. You must show him this behaviour will not be tolerated and he’s not to attack anyone. If he does, have a punishment he cares about and see it through. If you don’t you have taught your dd that she accepts violence!

Haven't read all the posts but I think some things just take longer to sink in with some kids. All the people who "would come down hard" or "wouldn't stand for it" don't have kids who do that, so they are just thinking about their own emotional reaction rather than an actual strategy. Clearly you are beyond that.

I feel like you're doing mostly the right things, the TV clearly works for things he is currently capable of learning what's right and wrong, but as you've identified the hitting isn't yet in his conscious control.
I would focus on removing him, identifying triggers, and if you're not, pre emptying with role play.
So if you know that losing a game is a trigger, then when you start a game, eg we do "ohhh, but what happens if you lose? Let's see if you are going to manage, let's practice what happens if I lose" then you pretend to lose and do what you expect him to do. Then switch to practising him losing. Then if he knows what is ok and practices it then when it comes to it's easier for him to do that.

Also on the apology, I made up some "fill in the blanks" apology cards on the computer, it takes the demand off the apology while allowing reflection. It's basically got space for names, circle what happened (hitting or talking rudely or whatever) and scribble on a stick figure which part was hurt, then there's a space for what they will do next time. You can fill in together if they can't write yet, or they can do it alone, then they can give it to the other person. We even have a tick box for "apology accepted".

Another idea is problem solving together, I've basically done a separate brainstorming session with my son, "ok this is the problem (hitting/not getting ready in time for school/etc), any ideas about how to fix this" then we just write down all the ideas, then rank them together, then make a plan from that. At 5 you probably need to lean on the direction of the plan, but the idea is to give a feeling of collaboration, which helps with any demand avoidance.

I guess overall it is giving him the best chance of learning while also protecting the other family members in the short term.

Good luck though, it can be tiring, but he'll get it in the end if you're consistent. Now our 6 year old has got past it we're onto the hitting with our 3 year old!

Thanks everyone for the inputs and apologies if I'm not replying to every post. I do read every post usually multiple times. I think the consensus is that I'm too quick to soothe him and that he needs to learn to not be violent by learning how miserable it makes him feel and that actually this is not something we will forgive so easily. Whoever said don't teach him to be a little shit - thanks. Those are the words that have been going round my head since yesterday.

Also, thanks for the resources and book recommendations.

We tell DD she never should accept violence and she has every right to defend herself in whatever way that takes whether it means calling us or hitting or pushing him back.

Can I also clarify that his violence isn't focussed on dd. It's whoever is the closest at that moment and that is often DD but it can also be me, DH or at the moment his grand parents. They do spend time on their own in the garden or one of the rooms but as far as I remember he's never hit DD then. It's usually in the evening when all of us are around. So yes, tiredness is a major factor and really something we need to fix (that's a whole.different post 🙄)

Again, he never hits or is aggressive at school or anywhere else.ive asked his teacher. She said she sees no aggressive behaviour at all. On the contrary. He is very well behaved. So It's just at home. And yes, he's at school. Just finished reception. August born.

Another factor is that I think that I just need to make more time for ds. For the past two summer holidays I've been going away for 1-2 weeks (to help out my very Ill parents) and that's usually when the aggressive behaviour gets worse. The grandparents come over and dh is of course around but maybe it's specifically me missing that disturbs ds. And when I come back I've got so much work and other stuff to deal with that i just don't get enough time with the kids.

Maybe the good news is that there are things we can change and improve on.

These are brilliant..thanks so.much..i.love the apology cards!!!

He's actually not a bad loser. Most of the time when he hits it's because he doesn't get what he wants. The last episode was when we took away the phone he was playing on. He isn't allowed on phones but he's been getting on his grand parents' phones..anyway there's a total phone ban now and the grand parents are also on board and helping by keeping their phones out of sight. I think this is exactly the kind of thing though that the role playing could help with.

We've done brain storming sessions. They used to be really helpful with DD but somehow ds doesn't really take an interest in them. He just keeps saying I don't know.

I’m sorry you have ill DPs. Missing you can be upsetting but plenty of DC do have a DP who goes missing through work or other responsibilities and whilst it’s not ideal, I wouldn’t be using this as reason to justify him regularly hitting his loved ones.

Do have the chat with DD about having the right to defend herself and not to expect violence from those she loves. I reiterate offering to take her to a Martial Arts class or go to one with her so that she can block any attacks properly.

I think I’ve read most of your posts but I can’t see what the consequences are when he hits his DGPs? I am hopeful my that they’re fucking outraged and show it quite clearly.

He has never caused bruises. The hardest he's hit was the latest episode which caused redness for about 20min or so but then faded. I don't want to minimise it but it also doesn't happen that often. Apart from the summer holidays it's maybe once every few months. DD has probably caused more bruises on him than vice versa (by accident).

Glad it was helpful and Fair enough on the games that was just an example. You could use it for anything, eg "you can have screen time but first I'll pretend to have screen time and you take the phone away," then you do the reaction you expect, then you practice the other way around, then he's primed better.

Same consequence. No TV. I know people think that's too soft but please just trust me that this is the one thing that gets through to him. Taking away other toys or cancelling outings would mean less to him though we have done that as well.

No, gp aren't outraged. They never raise their voices. I only remember twice that he's been violent towards them. Once in this summer holiday and once in the last summer holidays.

Excellent advice here OP.

Perhaps it’s time they were? If he’s never had a very stern telling off it might be time to give that one a try. My DD used to bite me. She was younger than your DS and non-verbal at the time.

I had honestly tried almost everything. One say she did it in front of my DF who in shock raised his voice and told her off. It was the only time he ever did.

She was so shocked that she never, ever bit me again.

Perhaps he’s not learning that violence is socially unacceptable because he’s not getting the message clearly enough?

@TrollRoad Your DS is not chastised by grandparents or you? Or his sister? He’s getting a free pass to carry on isn’t he! I’d be furious if a grandchild behaved like that and you are all favouring him. You all need to stop or he’ll still be having tantrums about not getting his own way at 15 and that can get pretty ugly at school when he challenges teachers.

Does he understand an apology card? I bet he doesn’t. It’s a piece of paper. It means nothing to him, other than he’s been asked to fill in the blanks. He will just keep doing that and learn nothing. Dc respond better when they understand feelings of others. At the moment he doesn’t. That’s what you need to work on. Not a computer generated card!

Of course he gets chastised. We do tell him off. Even shout at him.

But clearly not well enough to give him a short sharp shock and actually stop future attacks. He is clearly more than capable of behaving or he would also show this problem at school.
But for whatever reason, he feels he can get away with it within his family. Perhaps as the youngest you’ve all slipped into babying him a bit too much

@TrollRoad But it’s then cuddles and a nice chat with an apology he won’t deliver. That’s also defiance really. For me you are all too passive. I think grandparents gave him a phone to keep him quiet and give themselves an easier time of it. That’s a slippery slope of course but everyone needs to sing from the same page and he’s obviously the baby of the family. Does he show empathy with anyone after he has hit or bitten them? That’s often the key to remorse and deeper understanding that it’s wrong.

I hope you don’t mind me popping on again OP but just reading some of your posts that the TV is the main thing he cares about, I wondered if you would consider getting rid of it all together? I did with my two over Easter as I was frustrated at their lack of enthusiasm for certain activities so decided it had to be severely limited. They genuinely only watch it every couple of weeks these days but their behaviour has hugely improved all round.

Prevention is also good but you wont always be able to prevent it and you do need to be firmer and clearer afterwards.

He must apologise. Don't mess about with "he must feel sorry first". Children are self-centred and he needs to learn through experience that other people's feeling matter. Your attention is the big prize, don't give cuddles and sympathy to him after violent behaviour but for starting to put things right. Yes, he is put in his room and loses all your attention until he apologises. You wouldn't say "kids need to feel grateful before they say thankyou" because learning to say say thankyou for gifts you don't even like is part of learning to feel gratitude. Having to say sorry and thankyou are both about learning to respect other people's feelings. After he apologises then he is forgiven and things are fine again. He may need a consequence as well (like no TV or whatever) and even while he's doing the consequence you can be positive with him meanwhile as long as he has apologised properly to his DSis.

I know. I have told him as much. I told him other people will not ever accept violence towards them and they will shun him or hit back.

Sorry but those big threats are the fastest way to make a small child feel terrible and mess with his self esteem. Those are your worries, they are not sensible or effective threats. He is 5 and what will happen in future is not relevant to him. Keep it in the moment. He did the wrong thing, so he is out of favour with the important adults until he does the right thing.

I would not be worrying about play therapy. He's not the first 5 year old to bash an older sibling. I'd suggest a parenting group first as this is not uncommon and as parents you should be able to dial it back. If there are other thngs going on, or if he was hitting you or DH then yes you might need professional help.

DD needs to pack in placatibg him. He is learning that it is ok to hurt women.

Severe consequences, with escalation, and clearcezpectations of good behaviour.

He needs to know, and really feel in the moment, that you are Really Cross. That this behaviour is totally unacceptable. Don’t hand-wring about whether he will feel rejected and unloved. Setting and enforcing firm boundaries around behaviour makes children more secure and happy, not less. Time to nip this in the bud and make no bones about the fact that you really mean it.

The "fine at school" argument has been heavily discredited. That's not to say that there's more the OP can do, but current thinking is that a lot of children are fine at school because they hold it all in, then they let it all out at home.
As an example, our son used to have huge meltdowns from the moment the childminder opened her front door for pickup (at less than 1 year old) having been "fine all day", it didn't really improve until he was over 6 years old. Even getting him to eat, toilet and bed was a huge struggle despite very few issues at school.

Obviously that's slightly different from a 5 year old hitting, but fine at school is information but definitely doesn't mean fine at home, and doesn't necessarily mean the parents are doing something wrong.

A lot of people are saying DS needs to be made to apologise, but l actually disagree. I don't think forcing him to say a couple of words is going to make a difference. Instead, I think once he has calmed down properly (it can take a lot longer than you think for his brain to return to normal state), he needs to think of something to do to try to make amends with DD. It could be making an apology card, offering to play her favourite game with her that he doesn't normally like to play, doing her chores for her. Anything that he wouldn't normally do basically. I've taught students who have learnt that saying 'I'm sorry' is a quick fix, but it has become totally meaningless and their behaviour never changes. In my experience, taking the time to do something for the person you have wronged is much more effective.

Don’t use removal of TV as a consequence - use it as a reward. “Hey DS, you’ve been very gentle and managed to keep your hands to yourself today so if you like you can have half an hour of TV. What would you like to watch?”
Don’t love bomb him after he’s hit someone, even if he’s really upset. He’s upset because he’s being punished for doing something he shouldn’t be doing. Cuddling him and telling him you love him is sending very mixed messages. If my DDs ever hit out, they would have been given a consequence - sent to their room for example - and then we would have gone in after a while to speak to them. “Mummy will always love you but hitting is never a good thing to do, and mummy does not like you when you hit. Now come on and think about what you need to do now.” said in a firm tone, with an expression that shows some disappointment. No cuddles at all. Then as soon as possible once they’ve apologised, try to catch them doing something nice and THEN give them a big cuddle! “Mummy really likes you when you do such a kind thing.”

You’re forgetting that the apology is also for the person who has been wronged. In this case, his sister will see that her brother is sorry. She may not want to play a game with him or even talk to him!

All that’s doing though is teaching that you can do whatever, as long as you say sorry not that it’s wrong in itself.

OP - if your youngest clearly cannot be trusted then they remain with you / supervised by appropriate adult at all times. And I mean always, he is not left alone with sister. Do not give him the opportunity to hurt his sister. Removing him after is closing the stable gate after the horse has bolted. Youngest remains with you at all times. And come down like a ton of bricks if any incidents. No devices, you need to stay with me now, removal of privileges. And do not console him for having to apologise. That is exactly the kind of behaviour that enables young men to do what they do with no accountability because no one has ever told them no / made it so they have to sit with the consequences of their actions. Find your anger (not in an unsafe or unhealthy way but in a no I’m not going to allow that way). You are neglecting your older child by allowing her to be hurt by her younger sibling and it will escalate, what will he be doing when he is 13/15 or beyond? Also speak with your daughter about placating him. That is not her role and it unacceptable for her to be being treated in an abusive manner, and will only teach her that it is acceptable to be treated this way, less by a male. Give her permission to be firm in her boundaries with him and to hold her own space. And if you need help with managing behaviour engage with Children’s Centre / Early Help / school support staff.

If the apology is not genuine and he continues to be abusive towards her, she won’t see that her brother is sorry, it’s futile saying sorry with no change or accountability.