How to deal with DS5 hitting dd9?

[TrollRoad]

When DS5 is upset he gets violent and often his sister9 bears the brunt of it. He hits, kicks, bites, scratches or throws things. She usually screams or cries but she won't hit back as she doesn't want him to get hurt.

We remove him immediately and then tend to DD to check if she's ok. He's usually quite upset and scared himself after hitting anyone so I do hug him and tell him I love him and that we are there for him. He obviously feels bad but he refuses to apologise or even ask DD if she's ok. We have explained to him time and time again that hitting or any other form of violence is not ok and that we won't accept it. He gets an automatic TV ban for violence but I doubt that in that moment when he's in a rage he is actually capable of stopping himself from being violent.

DD always forgives him and often makes the first move to make up again but I am so scared that eventually this will affect their relationship or that he will grow up to be a violent person.

When he's not upset he is of course lovely and then I think he will eventually grow out of it but what if he doesn't? Besides till that happens DD has a right to be safe at all times.

They usually get on well and in spite the age gap still play nicely together (though DS has lashed out before as well. Actually every time he gets upset) but the holidays have just forced them to spend too much time with each other. Also, DH and me have no leave left so are working full time (grand parents are at home with the kids or they go to holiday clubs), which probably doesn't help.

Any advice? Does anyone have experience of this? What helped? Equally important, what didn't help?

Ok thanks. I'll look that up.

If he does something bad he has to be upset and you need to bite the bullet and ignore this. He needs to grasp that doing something bad results in a punishment and therefore him feeling bad. He needs to experience this and make the connections to get the message.

I know it is hard and you love him dearly but hitting others is a line in the sand that cannot be crossed and the consequences need to be crystal clear to him.

There is a strong case to be made out for making him apologise but that process can trigger another meltdown. He needs to be pretty settled before you ask him to do that. If he is in mid-tantrum/righteous indignation you will find it hard to get him to do this and then you have a second battle on your hands.

He needs to know that it is OK to feel cross about something or with somebody but hitting is simply not allowed ever.

And no cuddles and comforting till he has settled down and apologised. It might be a long gap, but that is fine - it will dissociate the hug (reward) from the bad behaviour. He needs to be rewarded with a cuddle for apologising and not after the bad behaviour because you feel sorry for him.

I sympathise @TrollRoad and I understand where you’re coming from. My own five year old ds gets overwhelmed and hysterical at times and it’s hard not to feel sorry for him. That said, I think @Nosleepforthismum ’s approach is the right one. We have older boy younger girl so I do think we have to be harsher with consequences.

Zones of regulation may help.

your dd may benefit from going to a martial arts class where she can learn ways to block hits etc which are not aggressive and will defend her without hitting back.

i had twins, and if mine hit there would be no attention no nothing until they said sorry. Full understanding of sorry can come later.

we also read a number of books about hitting and anger and better ways to deal with it.

You sound like you don’t like him being upset and that’s more important to you than your daughter being hurt. There sounds like there’s a lot of placating going on. Your husband was right to say not in the same room as your daughter. It needs to be an immediate and harsh consequence not just a TV ban. Like him not going on a trip out or you taking your daughter out for a treat but unfortunately he misses out because of his behaviour.

I would also make it clear apologising is a bare minimum but doesn’t take away what he’s done. He’d be getting a punishment from me and a more severe one if he won’t apologise and take ownership. As a further punishment I wouldn’t let him go off and play with your daughter once he’s apologised, I’d keep her away from him to really make him consider his behaviour and not get her into the habit of minimising what he’s done.

I spoke to him and held him because He was obviously scared and very upset.

In this house, and DD had impulse control issues as a smaller person, the question is "how can we feel better?" If we hurt someone, that's apologising, offering something, maybe a hug, maybe a treasured item. No hug, just logic. Think Mary Poppins tone. He's crying and upset, you use an empathetic and kind but firm tone, "you're upset you hit DD, what can you do to make her feel better?"

No holding, hugging etc. I hate to compare children to dogs but if you wanted to train a dog to bite people, you'd stroke it and give affection after it did.

And to prevent... all the antecedents. Hunger, thirst, tiredness, overstimulation etc. Manage and control al of them.

Well, yes of course. Affection shouldn't be conditional. At least not a parent's affection. I don't want to teach him by using my affection as a tool or as a reward for good behaviour or withdrawing it as a punishment for bad behaviour. That seems really manipulative. I didn't tell him what he did is ok. I didn't console him. But I did hold him and tell him we want to help him. I told him we are very upset with him and won't accept him hitting dd. What he did wasn't ok but of course we still love him and that's the truth. I don't think you can teach a child to behave by threatening that you will stop loving them if they misbehave. On the other hand guilt can be a strong motivator so maybe I should have left him to stew a bit longer.

And be was scared and upset. Not scared of us or his sister but maybe of himself and how to deal with his emotions and the situation. And I think he does get scared that maybe we don't love him when he lashes out. He was clearly very, very relieved when DD hugged him.

Sounds harsh but he needs to feel terrible and scared of what he’s done to prevent it happening again. Currently he isn’t as upset as you think he is because he’s doing it so quickly.

"He's crying and upset, you use an empathetic and kind but firm tone, "you're upset you hit DD, what can you do to make her feel better?"

That's pretty much verbatim what I said and so I was quite upset when he didn't want to (or couldn't get himself to) do anything to make her feel better. But maybe he doesn't know that it doesn't take much for everything to be ok again so doesn't realise how bad his behaviour is. But going by his face I think he does know and he's upset about it. Anyway I'll give it more time next time before hugging him.

Affection shouldn't be conditional.

If the fear and sadness he feels because he hit someone is solved by hugs and kisses, rather than by apologising, making amends and changing, you will have failed him.

Affection shouldn't be conditional.

There is an important distinction to be made here.

Your affection is not conditional; the demonstration of that affection is.

For him no TV is genuinely the worst punishment he can get. He doesn't watch a lot of TV so whatever TV time he gets is very precious to him. He would care less about other things like a trip. And we did tell him he can't join us and DD in the board game we started playing with her.

Yes that's true.

You need to practice the activitea daily when he isn’t angry. I would also try and keep them apart when he is tired or avoid activities which are triggers when he is tired and their together.

Is it just his sister he is like this with?

yesterday DH told him he can’t enter the same room as DD til he apologises to DD so he was loitering about the door of the living room crying

Nope, wouldn’t have that. He’d be in his room, not attention seeking in the doorway refusing to say one word “sorry”.
I wouldn’t leave him in his room literally indefinitely until he apologised. But fussing at the doorway trying to get his hug and sympathy wouldn’t be happening.

Zero tolerance for violence. Certainly not hugs and kisses.

What is he like at school?

I think you’ve got a bit confused with this OP.

You can not give affection after your child has been vile and that doesn’t mean your affection is conditional. You aren’t saying to him I would give you a cuddle now but I’m not going to because you were horrible.

Is he getting really upset after the hitting? Why does he need comfort whilst being disciplined? He should feel uncomfortable, he’s done something wrong.

This whole situation is very unfair on your DD. 5 is old enough to know that hitting is unacceptable.

If you’ve identified that being tired is a trigger then you can’t let them be unsupervised together when he’s tired. You need to watch him like hawk and work out when he’s gearing up to hit.

Then you need to get him to identify when he’s starting to feel cross and get him to use his words to express what he needs or wants. If children can use their words they are far less likely to hit.

The sad fact is that your children sometimes have to hate you because you are doing something that you know is in their own good in the long term but that they do not like. He needs to learn that hitting is unacceptable and if the punishment means he needs to hate you for a bit, then so be it.

We cannot have a cuddly happy life with children all the time - life is full of hard lessons and not teaching those to him is failing him.

Later in the day give him some hugs, pay him attention - as long as he is behaving. But do not mention the bad behavior. That will give him a mixed message - the connection he needs to make is that he gets the hugs when he is behaving well, not that it is all some hangover from earlier in the day - a sort of sorry from you. He needs to register it as a clear consequence of behaving well.

Once the incident is dealt with then let it lie.

No, he also lashes out at me, DH and his grandparents. Whoever is physically closest to him at that moment. But that's it. Never at school or anywhere else. Never outside. He's very well behaved at school or clubs.

Umm stupid question probably but so this is not typical behaviour from a 5 year old?

Not in my experience. I have a 2yo and just turned 5yo. The 2yo is still learning not the hit but the 5yo knows it’s not okay and doesn’t do it. There are times when you can tell he wants to but he stops himself.

But we have always come down very hard on hitting. I’m pregnant and have chronic pain, either of the children hitting me is a very very big deal and absolutely never acceptable.

Totally agree and nothing wrong with using the dog analogy in my mind.

How did you come down hard on the hitting?

My DD(7) can struggle with emotional regulation. She doesn't hit, the worst she will do is throw things. We use strategies to avoid things getting out of control in the first place (e.g. she can struggle when asked to do something but if you turn it into a challenge like timing how fast she can get changed it usually helps) but we found it difficult when it got past the point of no return to help her to use the strategies she knew like deep breathing, as she would reject any suggestion in the moment.

She went to play therapy and this really helped - after her block of sessions she was much more likely to use strategies in the moment even unprompted by us, and she can also talk about how she feels physically when she's getting upset. Your DS could also be supported to talk about how he feels after he's hurt his sister and why he finds it so hard to apologise even though he may be feeling deeply sorry inside. We went privately and it was about a 6 month wait but it was worth it.

I think some posters are seeing the cuddles etc that you give DS after the event as a reward, when actually what you're doing is offering co-regulation. 5 year olds don't have all the skills to regulate themselves yet so it's normal for them to need help to calm down. Obviously you need to look after DD when she is hurt, but if you don't help him with co-regulation, you're going to struggle to improve the situation.