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Original poster

Court order/holiday/passport

77 replies

Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 13:32

We have a Child Arrangement order (DV history, ex took me, v controlling via order)

Order states children live with me, passports held by me, written permission required for holiday abroad 28 days in advance.

Ex informed me he would be booking a holiday abroad and would be writing to me giving details. Told Ex passports all out of date but was happy to share renewal costs.

Ex has ignored me, however I strongly suspect he has renewed the passports and is not giving them to me (I have asked what’s happening and been ignored) and based on what children say I believe a holiday to Greece has been booked, which I would agree to, however I think Ex is going to just go without letting me know or asking for the required agreement.

Does anyone know where I stand over this? It’s in the Order I hold the passports and that both of us need to give all details of any holidays booked. He only has 10 days at a time, so my worry is he will be true to form, ignore the Order and just go for two weeks, leaving me with no clue where he is or when he will be back, whilst ignoring all attempts to contact him.

Ex ignores huge parts of the Order whenever he fancies, so this is not based on nothing.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 16:10

Unless the order also names him as someone with whom your children should live, he will be committing a criminal offence if he takes them out of the country. He also risks being turned away at the airport or refused entry on landing in Greece. He will probably get away with it, but every year some parents miss out on a holiday they've booked and paid for because they don't have evidence that the other parent has consented. Contact him and remind him of this.

Julyshouldbesunny · 02/07/2024 16:12

Report the passports stolen then he can't use them.

FiveGoMadInDorset · 02/07/2024 16:13

DS’s mother has just renewed his friends passport, she was contacted by passport office as there is a court order for his friend in favour dad, they wouldn’t renew until Dad had emailed permission

WeeOrcadian · 02/07/2024 16:14

Report them as stolen

Apply for them yourself

dementedpixie · 02/07/2024 16:21

Could you call the passport advice line to see if the passports have been renewed?

dementedpixie · 02/07/2024 16:23

Have the children said they've had photos taken for passports as you need new ones for a renewal? They would also have needed a countersignature if the children are under 12 years old

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 16:45

Ignore those saying you should report the passports as stolen. That could get you in trouble. Making a false report to the police is never a good idea.

username47985 · 02/07/2024 17:16

Are you taking them away this year?
Can you not just renew them and get the passports, then give them to him when he requests them.

Or not worry about it too much and see what he does, the passports will be stamped with the dates and then you can go back to court with proof.

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 17:54

I am not taking them away this year. Their photos have been taken, and there has been “discussion” over getting them around the children.

The order is “lives with” in my favour and “spends time with” for him

I am also concerned that if he goes on the holiday he will not give me the passports to hold when he returns (also in the Order) meaning that if I decide to go away he will either not give me them or claim they are lost to force me to pay for them again.

I did speak to the Passport office and I wasn’t exactly reassured, as they said they “might” contact me if he renews them, as it’s always been done by me, but that they only know if there is a court order if he tells them? So I assume he won’t tell them! I seem to recall it should need a countersign by me as we are divorced, but I also know there is a section to explain why they can’t sign (my friend does this as her ex disappeared years ago)

The children are 12 and under.

I probably could ring them again now and see if they have renewed them, but I am not sure they will tell me. He won’t have the old passport numbers to give them either, so I imagine he will claim they are lost

OP posts:
Theunamedcat · 02/07/2024 17:56

But surely you can show them the court order? He doesn't need to tell them you can?

All sounds very dodgy and underhand

FiveGoMadInDorset · 02/07/2024 17:58

Passport office definitely knew about the court order in the case above

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 18:17

So I have spoken to them. He has told them the passport is lost/stolen, using the passport number from a presumed photocopy from an earlier holiday years ago.

So he has the passport after lying about it being stolen, to avoid me being asked.

He has not given that to me and nor has he informed me of any holiday.

The children aren’t vulnerable but they’ve given me the email for the Caveat team, but I think the Court would frown on me doing that, so I am tempted to email as @prh47bridge suggested pointing out that he has a) lied (I can prove he was told the passport was expired) and b) that it is a criminal offence if he goes with out permission and that both issues mean he is breaching the Order

OP posts:
LesLavandes · 02/07/2024 18:22

Report him to the non urgent police department.

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 18:39

LesLavandes · 02/07/2024 18:22

Report him to the non urgent police department.

Although that’s tempting I don’t know what that would achieve. We are both entitled to apply for it, but I am meant to actually have it in my possession.
I don’t know that they would be interested in that aspect, as he’s told the passport office it’s lost or stolen, not the police.

I am more concerned over there being no limits to how he will mess the Order around, because now he has it he can refuse to give it to me, I then can’t cancel it because I don’t have the new passport number, so they would contact him if I tried to.

I have literally lost complete control of the passport.

OP posts:
AKAanothername · 02/07/2024 19:42

Can you not apply for new passports legitimately? As a renewal rather than a dishonest 'lost passport' renewal?

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 19:57

AKAanothername · 02/07/2024 19:42

Can you not apply for new passports legitimately? As a renewal rather than a dishonest 'lost passport' renewal?

No. He has told them the passport I had (with the passport number) is lost or stolen and applied for new ones. My passports are stopped due to this (they were expired but the number was still used)

He now has the new passports. I do not have the number for those passports and I can’t do a thing without the passport numbers.

OP posts:
Wasywasydoodah · 02/07/2024 20:06

you could apply to court for an enforcement order.

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 20:12

Wasywasydoodah · 02/07/2024 20:06

you could apply to court for an enforcement order.

I could, but my order isn’t even a year old, so I am concerned that an enforcement case will become an attempt for him to try to change the access.

I am aware he wants to go back to court to try to change the Order, but wants me to be the one to apply and pay fees.

The only thing I can think of is to wait until after he’s had the holiday then request it for ID to open savings accounts, as that is the only photo ID I have? Then I may be able to get them.

Ex is as abusive as they come, so it’s not like dealing with a rational person who will just relinquish that control

OP posts:
Wasywasydoodah · 02/07/2024 20:20

Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 20:12

I could, but my order isn’t even a year old, so I am concerned that an enforcement case will become an attempt for him to try to change the access.

I am aware he wants to go back to court to try to change the Order, but wants me to be the one to apply and pay fees.

The only thing I can think of is to wait until after he’s had the holiday then request it for ID to open savings accounts, as that is the only photo ID I have? Then I may be able to get them.

Ex is as abusive as they come, so it’s not like dealing with a rational person who will just relinquish that control

Show quote history

Yes, once it gets back into court, anything could happen. It’s so hard. You could try a solicitor letter to ask him to comply. That way, if you do end up in court in the future, you’ve got evidence you behaved well and he didn’t.

Logoplanter · 02/07/2024 20:22

If he has obtained new passports and holds them apply for a specific issues order - return of the passports.

If he is going away in the next 28 days he's also in breach of the CAO for not seeking your permission so you could also apply for enforcement of the CAO.

Seek an urgent hearing if the holiday is imminent.

Logoplanter · 02/07/2024 20:24

If there is a history of domestic abuse you may qualify for legal aid.

MariaLuna · 02/07/2024 20:28

DS’s mother has just renewed his friends passport

This does not even make sense. Not in my world where only parents of under-18's can renew their own kids' passports. (Barring extenuation circumstances, foster kids etc. which would have input from SS).

MariaLuna · 02/07/2024 20:29

extenuating of course.... 🙄

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 20:30

Logoplanter · 02/07/2024 20:22

If he has obtained new passports and holds them apply for a specific issues order - return of the passports.

If he is going away in the next 28 days he's also in breach of the CAO for not seeking your permission so you could also apply for enforcement of the CAO.

Seek an urgent hearing if the holiday is imminent.

I have no cast iron date for the holiday, but shortly it will be less than 28 days with our holiday timings.

Will a specific issue order open the floodgates to him trying to change access? I don’t mind doing it if I can pinpoint it to that issue, but not if he can then jump in with his endless crap

OP posts:
Logoplanter · 02/07/2024 20:50

Once the matter is before the court it can make any s8 order it feels is appropriate (CAO, SIO, PSO) so yes, potentially it's opening up a can of worms but without court intervention it sounds like you are going to struggle to get the passports back.

Lesser option would be to go to a solicitor and ask them to write to him on your behalf saying you know he's got new passports and unless they are returned to you within x days you will lodge a court application. He may call your bluff...or it may work 🤷