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Original poster

Court order/holiday/passport

77 replies

Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 13:32

We have a Child Arrangement order (DV history, ex took me, v controlling via order)

Order states children live with me, passports held by me, written permission required for holiday abroad 28 days in advance.

Ex informed me he would be booking a holiday abroad and would be writing to me giving details. Told Ex passports all out of date but was happy to share renewal costs.

Ex has ignored me, however I strongly suspect he has renewed the passports and is not giving them to me (I have asked what’s happening and been ignored) and based on what children say I believe a holiday to Greece has been booked, which I would agree to, however I think Ex is going to just go without letting me know or asking for the required agreement.

Does anyone know where I stand over this? It’s in the Order I hold the passports and that both of us need to give all details of any holidays booked. He only has 10 days at a time, so my worry is he will be true to form, ignore the Order and just go for two weeks, leaving me with no clue where he is or when he will be back, whilst ignoring all attempts to contact him.

Ex ignores huge parts of the Order whenever he fancies, so this is not based on nothing.

OP posts:
Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 20:52

Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 13:32

We have a Child Arrangement order (DV history, ex took me, v controlling via order)

Order states children live with me, passports held by me, written permission required for holiday abroad 28 days in advance.

Ex informed me he would be booking a holiday abroad and would be writing to me giving details. Told Ex passports all out of date but was happy to share renewal costs.

Ex has ignored me, however I strongly suspect he has renewed the passports and is not giving them to me (I have asked what’s happening and been ignored) and based on what children say I believe a holiday to Greece has been booked, which I would agree to, however I think Ex is going to just go without letting me know or asking for the required agreement.

Does anyone know where I stand over this? It’s in the Order I hold the passports and that both of us need to give all details of any holidays booked. He only has 10 days at a time, so my worry is he will be true to form, ignore the Order and just go for two weeks, leaving me with no clue where he is or when he will be back, whilst ignoring all attempts to contact him.

Ex ignores huge parts of the Order whenever he fancies, so this is not based on nothing.

Go online and report the kids passports missing, then reorder new ones. If he comes saying he wants go on holiday send the bill for half the cost.

Logoplanter · 02/07/2024 20:52

Should also say the court may just deal with your SIO and if he tries to ask for variation of the CAO they may tell him to lodge his own application. It depends on the court really and the circumstances and what they hear.

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 20:53

Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 13:32

We have a Child Arrangement order (DV history, ex took me, v controlling via order)

Order states children live with me, passports held by me, written permission required for holiday abroad 28 days in advance.

Ex informed me he would be booking a holiday abroad and would be writing to me giving details. Told Ex passports all out of date but was happy to share renewal costs.

Ex has ignored me, however I strongly suspect he has renewed the passports and is not giving them to me (I have asked what’s happening and been ignored) and based on what children say I believe a holiday to Greece has been booked, which I would agree to, however I think Ex is going to just go without letting me know or asking for the required agreement.

Does anyone know where I stand over this? It’s in the Order I hold the passports and that both of us need to give all details of any holidays booked. He only has 10 days at a time, so my worry is he will be true to form, ignore the Order and just go for two weeks, leaving me with no clue where he is or when he will be back, whilst ignoring all attempts to contact him.

Ex ignores huge parts of the Order whenever he fancies, so this is not based on nothing.

He shouldn't even be able to get new ones without your permission tbh but report them lost just incase he has, he will need send paper copy forms then for new with your signature etc

dementedpixie · 02/07/2024 20:55

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 20:53

He shouldn't even be able to get new ones without your permission tbh but report them lost just incase he has, he will need send paper copy forms then for new with your signature etc

Show quote history

It only takes 1 person to order a passport for a child. He obviously never disclosed there was a CAO though which was very underhand.

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 20:57

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 16:45

Ignore those saying you should report the passports as stolen. That could get you in trouble. Making a false report to the police is never a good idea.

They have been stolen.... they should never have been illegally obtained. But yes she could also phone the passport line and has a right to be told if new ones have been issued

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 20:59

dementedpixie · 02/07/2024 20:55

It only takes 1 person to order a passport for a child. He obviously never disclosed there was a CAO though which was very underhand.

Show quote history

You cannot obtain a passport without the mothers permission... I know because we had to wait until my husbands son was 16 to get his as the mum was AWOL. If he's managed it I'd be making a complaint to the passport office.

DuckBee · 02/07/2024 21:01

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 20:59

You cannot obtain a passport without the mothers permission... I know because we had to wait until my husbands son was 16 to get his as the mum was AWOL. If he's managed it I'd be making a complaint to the passport office.

Edited
Show quote history

This is incorrect. If both parents have pr then either can apply.

dementedpixie · 02/07/2024 21:01

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 20:59

You cannot obtain a passport without the mothers permission... I know because we had to wait until my husbands son was 16 to get his as the mum was AWOL. If he's managed it I'd be making a complaint to the passport office.

Edited
Show quote history

I have done passport applications and never had to get permission from dh to do so. I put his details down but he wasn't contacted for permission and his signature was not required

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 21:03

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 20:57

They have been stolen.... they should never have been illegally obtained. But yes she could also phone the passport line and has a right to be told if new ones have been issued

Show quote history

No, they have not been stolen. The ones held by OP have expired and he has applied for and obtained new ones. He may have lied about the old passports being lost or stolen, but that does not classify as theft.

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 21:05

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 21:03

No, they have not been stolen. The ones held by OP have expired and he has applied for and obtained new ones. He may have lied about the old passports being lost or stolen, but that does not classify as theft.

Show quote history

She has every right to call the passport office and have them cancelled. The court order states they remain with her.... he's effectively stolen them by reporting them missing and obtaining new ones. It's a fraudulent claim

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 21:10

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 21:03

No, they have not been stolen. The ones held by OP have expired and he has applied for and obtained new ones. He may have lied about the old passports being lost or stolen, but that does not classify as theft.

Show quote history

Yes, he has lied about them being lost/stolen . He has also not disclosed the court order to them, so now he has new passports.

I don’t overly care that he’s ordered them, if he’s chosen to do the expense that’s up to him, what bothers me is because of how he is he will see no reason why he should inform me of holidays, he won’t give it to me for any reason, but will also claim he doesn’t “remember” the number in order to prevent me reapplying for them and I effectively have lost control of the passports to an abusive, controlling man.

I am not sure really how to go about it. Do I write saying I am booking a holiday for a few days and I need her number for the booking (that’s plausible) then attempt to get a new lot later, do I say I have a holiday booked later in the year and will need it? Do I just, yet again, remind him of the order and wait whilst he ignores me again?
If I return to court on a specific issue, then it opens the floodgates again to his attempts to change the order.

I won’t have a clue if he goes away, or how long he’s going for

OP posts:
LittleOwl153 · 02/07/2024 21:21

Can you flag a border alert... I'm not sure you can without a passport number. But it would stop him taking them abroad without permission. Not ideal as no doubt there will be retaliation if he doesn't get his own way but...

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 21:31

I don’t think I can, as just giving the name won’t work.
It’s not even that I wouldn’t agree to the holiday! This is his little moments of joy, obtaining a passport without me knowing, be able to go off without telling me because he’s got the passport, being able to refuse to give it to me when I need it, safe in the knowledge I can’t cancel it or reapply without the number.

For an abusive arse this is the most enjoyable thing ever.

OP posts:
DinnaeFashYersel · 02/07/2024 21:37

Why are you against this holiday?

I get that you don't like him and obviously there's a bad relationship between you?

But is there another reason for not agreeing to the holiday?

Are the kids at risk?

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 21:50

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 21:05

She has every right to call the passport office and have them cancelled. The court order states they remain with her.... he's effectively stolen them by reporting them missing and obtaining new ones. It's a fraudulent claim

Show quote history

No, she does not have every right to do that.

OP cannot legally report a passport as lost or stolen if there is a parental dispute over possession of the passport. That is the situation here. If OP did report them as lost or stolen, that would be classed as malicious cancellation of the passports. If Passport Office become aware of this, e.g. via a complaint from OP's ex, they would report it to the police for possible prosecution. I don't think OP should risk getting a criminal record.

Given that there is a court order stating that OP should have the passports, she needs to go to court to get the order enforced if he refuses to hand them over after the holiday.

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 22:03

DinnaeFashYersel · 02/07/2024 21:37

Why are you against this holiday?

I get that you don't like him and obviously there's a bad relationship between you?

But is there another reason for not agreeing to the holiday?

Are the kids at risk?

Where did I say I didn’t agree to the holiday?

I have a court order, I am to hold the passports.
My ex did not tell me he was going to renew them, he just lied and cancelled them rather than renewing. He then didn’t tell me he had them, nor hand them over to me as per the Order. Had I not phoned the passport Office I would not have known until I tried to renew it.

He hasn’t asked for my permission to take them away, as per the Order, he isn’t going to give me the passports as per the Order, he is highly likely to “just go abroad” and highly likely to decide to take two weeks rather than his court ordered days, leaving me with no idea when they will return.

If there is a Court Order, then there is a Court Order and we both need to actually follow it.

OP posts:
Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 22:29

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 21:50

No, she does not have every right to do that.

OP cannot legally report a passport as lost or stolen if there is a parental dispute over possession of the passport. That is the situation here. If OP did report them as lost or stolen, that would be classed as malicious cancellation of the passports. If Passport Office become aware of this, e.g. via a complaint from OP's ex, they would report it to the police for possible prosecution. I don't think OP should risk getting a criminal record.

Given that there is a court order stating that OP should have the passports, she needs to go to court to get the order enforced if he refuses to hand them over after the holiday.

Show quote history

Just out of interest, as ex knew I had the passports but they were expired can that be classed as malicious cancellation? He has effectively stopped me getting a passport and has withheld the fact that he has got one.

OP posts:
Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 22:34

Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 21:31

I don’t think I can, as just giving the name won’t work.
It’s not even that I wouldn’t agree to the holiday! This is his little moments of joy, obtaining a passport without me knowing, be able to go off without telling me because he’s got the passport, being able to refuse to give it to me when I need it, safe in the knowledge I can’t cancel it or reapply without the number.

For an abusive arse this is the most enjoyable thing ever.

You can cancel without the number.... you call the passport office and tell them he's applied for passports against a court order.... send them a copy of the court order....

It's a crime to lie to the passport office. You have all the power here not him. You don't even need the numbers to report them lost my husband did it not long ago. Your letting him control this situation, you can also call and oppose the application there's so much you can do here and you just seem to be accepting his control over you.

Original poster
Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 22:49

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 22:34

You can cancel without the number.... you call the passport office and tell them he's applied for passports against a court order.... send them a copy of the court order....

It's a crime to lie to the passport office. You have all the power here not him. You don't even need the numbers to report them lost my husband did it not long ago. Your letting him control this situation, you can also call and oppose the application there's so much you can do here and you just seem to be accepting his control over you.

Show quote history

I’m not accepting any control? I’ve only found this out tonight and I am trying to tread very carefully.
The passport is already issued. He’s not stolen it because I didn’t have the new one, he has lied over it being lost in order to achieve that and I do plan on speaking to the passport office tomorrow to try to get their take on it, but ultimately I’m not going to get myself into loads of trouble and risk my job for this.

OP posts:
Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 23:02

Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 22:49

I’m not accepting any control? I’ve only found this out tonight and I am trying to tread very carefully.
The passport is already issued. He’s not stolen it because I didn’t have the new one, he has lied over it being lost in order to achieve that and I do plan on speaking to the passport office tomorrow to try to get their take on it, but ultimately I’m not going to get myself into loads of trouble and risk my job for this.

Show quote history

I'm not telling you to report it stolen anymore. You can object to the passports LEGALLY and they will be stayed or cancelled. You have a court order stating you should have them and you don't. You can legally object to those passports without saying he stole them.

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 23:22

Chippyeggs · 02/07/2024 22:29

Just out of interest, as ex knew I had the passports but they were expired can that be classed as malicious cancellation? He has effectively stopped me getting a passport and has withheld the fact that he has got one.

Show quote history

No. He didn't cancel those passports as they were already expired.

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 23:26

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 23:02

I'm not telling you to report it stolen anymore. You can object to the passports LEGALLY and they will be stayed or cancelled. You have a court order stating you should have them and you don't. You can legally object to those passports without saying he stole them.

Show quote history

A caveat stops a passport being issued. Once it has been issued, the Passport Office will not cancel it. As per my earlier post, OP needs to apply to the courts for enforcement if her ex refuses to hand over the passports.

RandomMess · 02/07/2024 23:31

Presumably you could alert the border authorities that ex is taking the DC out of the country on passports obtained by deceit and without your knowledge and permission as per the court order.

Harsh if they get stopped and don't get the holiday but it may get it through to him he can't ignore the court order.

You could also look at a prohibitive steps order to stop him taking them out of the country.

I assume there is zero chance of him failing to return the DC?

urbanbuddha · 02/07/2024 23:35

As advised just go to court and get the order enforced. You’re overthinking his influence on this.

Mummy2024 · 02/07/2024 23:36

prh47bridge · 02/07/2024 23:26

A caveat stops a passport being issued. Once it has been issued, the Passport Office will not cancel it. As per my earlier post, OP needs to apply to the courts for enforcement if her ex refuses to hand over the passports.

Show quote history

Of course it can be cancelled.... given it was obtained using incorrect information.... they first reported them lost when they were not, they then denied having a court order in place. This is ILLEGAL the passports have been obtained illegally. It's a crime to lie to HM customs so if I were him I would be extremely worried and if I were her I'd be straight on that phone.