Court order/holiday/passport

[Chippyeggs]

We have a Child Arrangement order (DV history, ex took me, v controlling via order)

Order states children live with me, passports held by me, written permission required for holiday abroad 28 days in advance.

Ex informed me he would be booking a holiday abroad and would be writing to me giving details. Told Ex passports all out of date but was happy to share renewal costs.

Ex has ignored me, however I strongly suspect he has renewed the passports and is not giving them to me (I have asked what’s happening and been ignored) and based on what children say I believe a holiday to Greece has been booked, which I would agree to, however I think Ex is going to just go without letting me know or asking for the required agreement.

Does anyone know where I stand over this? It’s in the Order I hold the passports and that both of us need to give all details of any holidays booked. He only has 10 days at a time, so my worry is he will be true to form, ignore the Order and just go for two weeks, leaving me with no clue where he is or when he will be back, whilst ignoring all attempts to contact him.

Ex ignores huge parts of the Order whenever he fancies, so this is not based on nothing.

I don’t have any extra advice but just wanted to say your ex sounds like a massive tool. What a shame for him that he’s been rumbled by you and he won’t get the mic drop moment he’s so looking forward to. Twat.

Yes, I agree with this and I am giving him far too much power over me, however, I do not want to give him a chance to jump in trying to get more access.

Given how badly he’s behaved with the passports I would think that the court is unlikely to be sympathetic.

He will return them, just potentially not when he should.

He is supposed to give me 28 days written notice, with proof of dates, and I have to do the same, but I think as the RP there is a bit at the bottom saying I can take them for up to 28 days without permission, so it’s confusing, but point is he needs my permission, however, he has pretty much ignored any aspect of the order that isn’t how he wanted it to be, so now he has the passports he will see absolutely no reason to tell me about it, because he doesn’t need to ask for the passport.
likewise, unless I sort this out he will delight in preventing me booking anything (you generally need the passport number to book) so this is like an abusers actual dream scenario

If he wants more access, he can go to court at any point and ask for it. I don’t think you should run scared of being the one to take it back to court.

Obviously you should get legal advice before you take any action. But I think you’re in a stronger position here to go back to court - there is an order, he has breeched the terms of the order. Courts do not like orders being breeched!

Yes he is. And he took me to court for the Order, not the other way round. It didn’t go how he wanted it to so he’s spent every minute looking for get outs and if there isn’t one then blatantly breaching it instead!
He’s an absolute arse.

Stop guessing and giving incorrect "advice".

He hasn't lied to HM Customs. They aren't involved in issuing passports. That is dealt with by the Passport Office, which is a completely separate body.

We don't know if he denied having a court order in place. The court order described by OP would not necessarily stop him from applying to renew the passports. It simply means that, having renewed them, he has to hand them over to OP when he isn't using them for a holiday.

If parent A holds an expired passport for a child and parent B wants to renew it, parent B has to tick the box to say the passport is lost or stolen. They then fill in the box asking how the passport was lost or why it is not available. We don't know what he put in this box. If he said the previous passport was held by OP and not available to him, he did not lie, and the passports have not been obtained illegally.

@prh47bridge do I wrote to him, or should I just go for the SIO? He knows the terms of the Order, I have now twice reminded him that the passports are to be held by me, so it’s not an oversight. This is quite deliberate.
Do I wait until after the holiday or try to do it all now?

How can anyone apply for a friend's passport? She must have made a false declaration surely? And why would dad give permission for this?

@BusyCM it was her son, my sons friend, sorry it was a bit muddled, father has court order in his favour but due to a break down son has been living with us and his mother applied for the passport

Unless this is urgent, you should write to him first. It is always best to resolve matters without going to court if you can.

It’s not urgent, but I am worried about his ability to now go away for as long as he wants.
Would I just write making him aware I have spoken to the passport office and am aware he has them and requesting their return, or should I say something else? He digs his heels in so if I mention court etc he will say “well do it!”
I also suspect he will refuse unless I pay half the renewal costs( I’ve had this before) over other things, he will take half then the passports will not appear

You have two issues to tackle with him - the passports and the holiday. Make it clear to him that he needs your consent for the holiday and that he will be committing a criminal offence if he takes the children abroad without your consent. And make it clear that he needs to comply with the court order regarding the passports and that, if he does not do so, you will ask the courts to enforce the order.

So I think you need to decide on tactics here because you don't necessarily want everything to escalate, and right now he's not actually disobeying the court order strictly speaking (for example you don't know when the passports were issued and if he's actually got them yet). I think court probably is only realistic when he's actually properly breached an order rather than he's had the passport 3 or 4 days and hasn't given it.

So maybe try switching tack? Thank him for renewing the passports and offer to pay half (I think to be fair that is half your cost if you want to make use of them too). Ask him to confirm the numbers to you as you always register these things in a safe place in case they are stolen.

Ask him has he booked the holiday yet and if he can confirm dates.

If he doesn't reply or do these things then that's a nice piece of evidence for court. But I wouldn't threaten court at this point. He's basically taking a risk without the permission from you and could get stopped at either border either way. This isn't even anything to do with court it's Greece border control.

https://www.mfa.gr/en/citizen-services/administrative-affairs/travel-documents-for-minors-greece.html#:~:text=When%20travelling%20with%20an%20adult,allow%20the%20minor%20to%20travel.

I think beyond that all you can do is see if he does breach the order and then take it from there. Sorry this sucks

Also only give him cash for your half and then give it when he literally hands over the passports !

Unfortunately, re the payment, I have been in similar situations before. He will say he doesn’t trust me to pay and sadly he can’t give me X until he has the money. I will give in and pay the money and then he will drop all communication and not give me the item. Or he will claim he’s “looking” for it.
This is why I am concerned. He’s so abusive like this, he will absolutely love the power this is giving him, he literally holds my ability to book a holiday in his hands! He will mess around and mess around and think about it, and try to palm me off.
If he thinks we can’t have a holiday because of it then that’s even better.

@Chippyeggs as the Children’s mother with PR are you not able to ask the Passport Office for the passport number and details?

But @Chippyeggs if he doesn't trust you then cash is the most trustworthy. You literally hand it over in cash as he hands the passports so he is certain He has the money so then he can't object to that surely.
Just say "oh I assumed you'd want cash so it's here for you when you bring them over" and just keep saying that !

I mean dont get me wrong he's a twat all told!

I don’t know. However, even with the numbers I’m still stuck as I need the physical passport 😔

That is a very good idea actually.

I genuinely can’t sleep for worrying about this.
I hate tackling him and starting all this stuff again.

In the nicest way OP stop going round in circles with this. Pick a plan (eg write and ask for return of passports or lodge an application with the court) and then go with it. You are tying yourself in knots and overthinking and this is causing you stress. Neither of the above suggestions are "wrong" and either is fine and you will likely feel better once you've made a decision and act on it.

I'm a huge procrastinator and overthinker so I do sympathise. If you do nothing however he has got all the power.

I am going to write first, so I have proof that I actually asked, then I will apply for an SIO once he has ignored me.

Sorry, but he is an abusive man and he delights in all this. Court was awful and I hesitate to open. All that again

It is awful how some parents behave.

Unfortunately, the courts can only do so much and there is great expectation on all parties to adhere to what the court has ordered. Sadly, that seldom happens.

Your plan sounds great. A written letter to ask which can then be produced in court as evidence. An then applying for a SIO if he ignores. I would word the email clearly so it can be added as an exhibit to you SIO.

I wonder if would be wise to start communicating via a parenting app. I know many who use OurFamilyWizard and it is great and keeps everything formal. Also, all admissible in courts so all correspondence (and all the times he ignores) will be logged and there for judges to see.

I suggested My family wizard. He won’t do that. He wants to use messages etc which I will no longer do due to the way he is.

currently it’s all done by email after I blocked him on everything else.