Speeding notice next steps

[Speednotspeed]

I’ll try to be brief but full factual.

Dh and ds work for the same company. They’ve both had an NIP regarding a speeding offence. They both have separate letters to complete to say who was driving. They drive between 500 and 1000+ miles per week. Neither knows who drove on this day, both have checked their phones to see if they were texting etc (meaning they weren’t the driver) - nothing they can find to work out who was driving.

Just wondering the legalities and next steps. Dh will ring the police in the next couple of days for further information.

Offence date 24.4.24
Dh NIP dated 21.6.24, arrived 22.6.24
Ds NIP dated 21.6.24, arrived today, 25.6.24
Both received a reminder letter yesterday, 24.6.24 saying they had to complete and return the NIP.
NIP says the speed they were doing (59) and on what road, but not what the limit is on that road, or by how much they were speeding. I’ve googled and the road is a 70 but currently has yellow average speed check cameras, I’m assuming it’s a 50. We’re assuming we’ve googled the correct road.

Dh has asked work to confirm what date is on the initial letter, as if it’s after 14 days from the offence I understand it’s not enforceable?

So, not trying to get out of the speeding charge, just want to know legalities and ensure dh/ds are dealt with correctly.

Is it best/reasonable for dh to ring the police and ask for a copy of the original letter that would have gone to the company so he can check the date, ask what the limit is on the road of the offence, tell them as it’s 2 months previous he doesn’t not know who was driving and can only confirm he was in the vehicle? I’m hoping they have a photo as that will clear it all up. Should he ask this?

Any other help and advice much appreciated.

There should be a photo on the reverse or online. Do they share a company vehicle? If it is a contract vehicle it may have gone to the contract car company first, then the company , then them.

It’s a company vehicle, the company have many, all are shared between all employees. They work to a rota and vehicles are assigned on the rota, so they know it was definitely them 2 in the vehicle on that day. There’s no photo, there’s no link to look online. The NIP is just details on the front, reverse of the letter is to complete with either yes I was the driver, no I wasn’t the driver. Nowhere to put you have no idea whether you were the driver or not, which is why dh is going to ring as he can’t complete the form accurately the way it is worded.

The original NIP would have gone to the company who in turn sent the details of the drivers of the vehicle at the time of the speeding. So long as the initial letter was dated within 14 days of the offence, I’m happy. If not, that’s a different route to go down. Although even if it was, how it’s taken 8+ weeks to actually get to dh and ds still seems somewhat long.

Two separate letters sound like two separate offences on the same stretch of road. Might be the same day at different times. The NIPS have reached the registered keeper within the 14 day time limit. If you are unsure who was driving at the time the Camera Unit will ask you to contact the employer who owns the vehicle for then to check their records to try to identify the driver

The company will have only nominated one driver not two. I think these are two different offences

Also it’s within the 14days as it’s already clearly gone to the company to ID the driver. Sounds like you seperate occasions- one your Ds was driving the other your DH

It’s only 1 offence. The 2 separate letters are 1 for my dh and 1 for my ds, as both were possible drivers on the day. They both received a second letter just saying you’ve been sent an NIP, please remember to respond within 28 days.

The company has rightly identified them both as working and travelling together in the vehicle that day. The only problem is trying to work out who was driving. If it’s the yellow average check cameras as we suspect, I don’t know if they have cameras? If they do, then great, all sorted. If they don’t, I don’t know what will happen next?

The original NIP should be sent within 14 days of the offence but I’m aware there are errors and this is not always the case, hence me wanting to double check that.

It’s definitely only 1 offence, the NIP has been sent to both of them as they both were using the vehicle together that day. We have to work out who was driving. The only way to do that now is with a photo that I’m hoping the cameras took.

I know the original NIP has been sent to the company in the first instance, but I need confirmation that it was dated within 14 days of the offence.

Two nominations for the same offence doesn’t sound right. If it’s the Met you nominate one possible driver. Check the reference number on both letters; the one to your son and the one to your DH

You don’t send a NIP to more than one driver. Send to the company and they will nominate a driver.

I think the original NIP will have gone to the company and they have said it could be DH or DS. Police have then invited both to say whether or not it was them. In this circumstance I don't think 14 days helps as that's to get the NIP to the Keeper, in this case the employer.

If it's an average speed camera then there won't be a photo of the vehicle/driver. These things read the VRN and use a simple distance time calculation to identify cars going to fast.

While it's possible to go to court and say we don't know there's a risk neither will be believed.

If they know time/date and location can they say, on balance of probabilities it was one or the other?

If the margin over the limit was fairly narrow and the nominated driver has not done one recently (3 years?) they'll probably be offered a Speed Awareness Course. If not a fine and 3 points, provided both have clean licences now, shouldn't be too punitive now or later if it impacts inursnce.

There is only space on the NIP to nominate one possible driver

Fair enough but if the company want to say it was either Fred or George and write to that effect what effect is there on legality of notices.

This sort of thing might be better asked on somewhere like Pepipoo or Honest John where there are people who know their stuff.

The company can’t nominate multiple drivers. I worked at the camera unit

This page might help:

https://www.ah-solicitors.co.uk/road-traffic/failing-to-provide-driver-information

That suggests the keeper has the option to say that after all inquiries and due diligence they cannot with certainty nominate a driver but instead say here is a list of possibles.

@Speednotspeed did the employer speak to DP and/or DS as part of their inquiries to determine who was behind the wheel?

Google the Hamilton defence
you’d have to go not guilty and risk the costs of a trial

If you can’t decide who was driving you will have to go to court and explain to a magistrate

You cannot just give a list of possible drivers. It doesn’t work like that.

I think we're at crossed purposes.

You're quite right that if, as keeper you nominate a driver under Sction 172 (2)(a) you can only nominate one person.

However if, after diligent inquiry the keeper cannot determine the person to nominate he has a defence - Section 172(4). In order to assist the process, and show how diligent he was, the employer might say it was either Fred or George.

The link I posted above suggests that is possible and I think it's what's happened here. Alternatively the keeper may be a third party and they've nominated the employer who, in turn has provided information pursuant to 172 (2)(b).

If of course the police have overstepped the mark by sending NIPs to both Fred and George then they have a defence.

Absolutely. They shouldn’t have sent two NIPS. The first NIP always goes the registered keeper. They either complete the admission or nominate. That nominated driver receives their own NIP and if wasn’t the driver nominates again. What’s odd is that the DH and DS were both sent a NIP. The company has obvs said possible drivers so the admin at the police would only enter one name. There is no option to enter another. Most strange. I think same stretch of road different offences. The ref numbers will be different if so x

@Cattery the first NIP goes to the Keeper and the obligation to name at risk of criminal penalty rests on them.

Further NIPs, for example to the hirer of a car, carry a less onerous obligation; to give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.

Whether based on either the above scenario, or one where the keeper says 'dunno but after due diligence it's either Fred or George', the police can NIP both I don't know.

@Cattery the company has, correctly, nominated 2 drivers. They are workers going to various jobs around the country. Both employees can drive the van, both swap driving, just depends on how they feel.

Both NIP’s are identical, both the same reference number, both the same date, time etc - they’re identical.

@Bromptotoo this is exactly what’s happened, the company has rightly, correctly, named the 2 possible drivers. It was definitely 1 of them, that much is true. It’s not possible to know who was driving, they don’t have a regular routine of who drives when, it’s just on the day, throughout the day, 1 jumps in the drivers seat, 1 in the passenger. We all want to do this correctly, which is why they’ve checked their messages for that day, hoping that 1 of them sent texts to prove who was driving, neither did. The time was 5am.

The company didn’t speak directly to dh and ds, they checked the rota for who had the van on that particular day, checked with all workers in a group that this was correct, and it was.

@Bromptotoo Cases in that scenario would go to court. If you really genuinely didn’t know who was driving you have your chance to explain to a magistrate and they’ll make the decision

The company have done the correct thing by checking the rota. They can only nominate one driver tho. Two entries for nomination cannot be made on the same offence at the same time. No idea what has happened here tbh

Just to clarify (I realise cross posting etc), it is categorically only 1 offence. The NIP’s are identical apart from 1 says dh, 1 says ds. I assume police have contacted the registered keeper, the company, who have then given the police the 2 possible drivers. The police have then sent out 1 identical NIP’s.

Yeh that what it sounds like. Ring and ask.