Speeding notice next steps

[Speednotspeed]

I’ll try to be brief but full factual.

Dh and ds work for the same company. They’ve both had an NIP regarding a speeding offence. They both have separate letters to complete to say who was driving. They drive between 500 and 1000+ miles per week. Neither knows who drove on this day, both have checked their phones to see if they were texting etc (meaning they weren’t the driver) - nothing they can find to work out who was driving.

Just wondering the legalities and next steps. Dh will ring the police in the next couple of days for further information.

Offence date 24.4.24
Dh NIP dated 21.6.24, arrived 22.6.24
Ds NIP dated 21.6.24, arrived today, 25.6.24
Both received a reminder letter yesterday, 24.6.24 saying they had to complete and return the NIP.
NIP says the speed they were doing (59) and on what road, but not what the limit is on that road, or by how much they were speeding. I’ve googled and the road is a 70 but currently has yellow average speed check cameras, I’m assuming it’s a 50. We’re assuming we’ve googled the correct road.

Dh has asked work to confirm what date is on the initial letter, as if it’s after 14 days from the offence I understand it’s not enforceable?

So, not trying to get out of the speeding charge, just want to know legalities and ensure dh/ds are dealt with correctly.

Is it best/reasonable for dh to ring the police and ask for a copy of the original letter that would have gone to the company so he can check the date, ask what the limit is on the road of the offence, tell them as it’s 2 months previous he doesn’t not know who was driving and can only confirm he was in the vehicle? I’m hoping they have a photo as that will clear it all up. Should he ask this?

Any other help and advice much appreciated.

Surely their best defence is BOTH say they were driving. They cannot be both liable for the same offence.

@Cattery should dh mention the error they’ve made? What does the second photo wording mean? After looking online, I’m assuming as it’s a category N1 van, it’s legally limited to 50 on a single carriageway, 60 on dual! So even though the single carriageway national limit is 60, vans are legally only allowed to do 50. I don’t think many van owners realise this. We sort of knew, but thought it applied to N2 vans, not N1!

@Ariela I’m not sure if that would just open up a can of worms and get them both prosecuted 🤔

@Speednotspeed Can’t comment on the speed, the vehicles or the road tbh. All I know is that two nominations cannot be entered at the same time on the same record.

This case would then be referred to a magistrates court

Terrible, terrible advice (I'm a criminal lawyer, by the way). Neither should under any circumstances tell the police X was driving if he neither knows nor believes that to be the case.

What each should do is provide in response all "information which it is in his power to give [which] may lead to identification of the driver." That is their legal duty. Neither is under an obligation to say who the driver was. Thus the law allows for the perfectly understandable situation where the recipient is unsure who was driving.

Once the police receive the response they will have to decide whether there is enough evidence to prosecute anyone for speeding, or for failing to provide the information which it was in their power to give, etc.

If both demonstrates they had done all they can to assist then that is likely to be that.

The two defenses you have are that the NIP is late if you have clear evidence that it was originally sent late to the company. They don't give you a box for that on the form. The second is being unable to identify the driver. You can mark the box for that. Then in the detail you can explain the notice was received really late which means it is too long ago to be able to recall the driver and all the efforts you have gone to in order to try and identify the driver. The outcome of this is that the police will need to decide whether to take the matter to court. If they do then you can't get any greater points than you would otherwise have got but you lose the opportunity to do a speed awareness. It could be costly though particularly if you hire a solicitor. You should also be able to ask for a photo to identify the driver which also shows how clear their evidence is. I had a very out of date NIP and sue to the passage of time the roadworks involved had gone so I had no ability to work out whether the ticket was fair or not. I also initially wasn't sure who was driving but was able to work it out from WhatsApp and asking to see a photo of the driver. I took the driver awareness course which was quite useful as I didn't have the energy or time to make a case in court and it would have been a ton of hassle. There is no other real way to challenge it.

No. Do not “take the rap”. Do as I have advised in my earlier post.

And again, this is precisely what they should not do. Lying in court will not lead to a good outcome and nor is it necessary, as they are under no obligation to nominate the driver, only to do all they can to help the police to ascertain who it was - see my earlier post.

The original point was that both the OP’s dh and ds have received the same NIP with the same date on each. Two nominations from their company cannot be entered at the same time on one transaction. It is likely an administrative error.

I'm still confused by the use of the word 'nominations' when, in all probability, the employer has not nominated an individual but said it could be either A or B.

In that circumstance which bit of legislation prevents the Police from sending NIPs to both?

I don’t know the legislation @Bromptotoo but I do know that doesn’t happen. One person is nominated. That person receives a nip then is able to make their own nomination. There can’t be two nominations entered at the same time. The fact that the two nips sent to OP’s dh and DS have the same date on them is what is puzzling. Sure the company can say we think it was either A or B but only one nominee will be entered at that stage

I’m saying to not let it get to court. Not to lie in court. 😀

That’s not a defence, unfortunately my husband got stung by it.

Also had the same that they couldn’t categorically say who was driving. He signed the van out so took the hit in the end. He’s made a log ever since when sharing vans who drove when / for how long.

OP, can you please post clearer photos of the notices? They seem to be requiring the recipient to identify the driver on the basis they were the registered keeper, but it is not very clear.

For the sake of a speed awareness course most people in this scenario would just pick who they thought was most likely to have been driving. It may not be right but it’s the stress free solution. They just need to get on with it and keep a log in future.

@AmateurDad Thank you - we have NO intentions, never have had, to pick one of them to take the rap. As I said earlier, I’m genuinely surprised/shocked that people think this is ok, or the right/only thing to do! Photo attached, not sure it’s any better. The notices say “you are recorded as the registered keeper of this vehicle, have been named as the driver or may have information regarding the keeper/driver at the time of the alleged offence” The notice says what speed the driver was doing, but not what the speed was on the road .. I’m assuming that’s what the long line of numbers is, although I think there’s also a misprint, and 18 should read 10 🤔

The only boxes to tick are ‘I was the driver’, ‘I was not the driver due to sale, purchase, hired to someone else, known drivers details given’. There is no box to tick unsure. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Cattery If this is an admin error (and not just how they do it now), should the notice be dropped or still pursued?

@UTITMI - I know that’s not a defense … I’m not defending what happened or who, we’re exhausting all avenues to try to pinpoint the driver. I was merely trying to understand the wording on the middle section, I don’t understand why they’ve written all those speeds then said driver was caught at 59. My assumption is, after reading further online, that the cameras have technology to know it is a small goods vehicle (N1), and used that technology to determine the correct individual speed is actually 50. That’s very clever technology, and I imagine there should be thousands of speeding notices going out as I would say most van drivers are unaware that they are subject to different national speed restrictions than cars.

Both dh and ds now note on their phones who is driving and when/where.

just adding this again, in case anyone can shed any light… so if work sent in the possible driver details after the 28 day deadline, are these NIP’s enforceable? Is that another possible admin error?

It all even gets a bit more bizarre .. offence 24/4, company checked for drivers on their rota, and confirmed in the work group on 12/6! they sent over both names to police we assume at this point .. but they only have 28 days to do this so even with all maximum timelines that’s 4/6. They say they disposed of the original notice so can’t tell us the date on it. Dh is talking further to work today.

@Shade17 they are indeed now keeping a log, a suggestion made by a poster yesterday or day before, great idea which we’d never even thought about before this happened 😳. They’re both going through their phone records to see if something jumps out as to ascertain the driver. I’m hoping this will give an answer, we really don’t want the hassle of court, but equally, are not prepared to just pick a driver 🤷🏻‍♀️

An admin error the notice(s) should be cancelled.

To reiterate; two nominations cannot be entered on a record at the same time.

That's great. Can you also post a photo of the section for the recipient to complete?

@Cattery - so how do we play it with the police? When dh rings then should he tell them directly this is an admin error and is wrong?

@AmateurDad photo attached

@Speednotspeed Tell them exactly what you’ve told us; that two identical notices have been sent to you in two separate names. Give them the reference number that is (the same) on both notices and let them check their system. Are you 100 per cent sure the ref numbers are exactly the same? Not even one digit different?

The notice that went out to the company would have been exactly the same on the reverse as the nip in your photo shows. Part 3 allows for ONE nominated driver to be entered. I can’t understand what the police have done. Best to give them a ring

The Notice No: are identical, I’ve checked them at least a dozen times, they are completely identical. I would put a photo up to prove it but for obvious reasons I don’t think that’s appropriate.

So you think it’s best when ringing up to say 2 NIP’s have been received with identical notice numbers, addressed to 2 different possible drivers, we believe that’s an admin error and the charge should be cancelled?

Ok. We were trying to sort everything out before ringing them but I wonder if it’s just best to ring first? Also, work has just said to dh that their letter from police was dated 31 May! Thats 37 days after the incident! We’re hoping they’ve kept a copy but they said yesterday they didn’t keep a copy.

So I guess the call to the police will be firstly asking why there’s 2 identical NIP’s in different names, if we can have a copy of the original NIP that went to employer as there’s as dispute over timings?

@Speednotspeed Definitely ring and explain what you’ve received. If it’s an admin error they should cancel whilst you’re on the phone