Speeding notice next steps

[Speednotspeed]

I’ll try to be brief but full factual.

Dh and ds work for the same company. They’ve both had an NIP regarding a speeding offence. They both have separate letters to complete to say who was driving. They drive between 500 and 1000+ miles per week. Neither knows who drove on this day, both have checked their phones to see if they were texting etc (meaning they weren’t the driver) - nothing they can find to work out who was driving.

Just wondering the legalities and next steps. Dh will ring the police in the next couple of days for further information.

Offence date 24.4.24
Dh NIP dated 21.6.24, arrived 22.6.24
Ds NIP dated 21.6.24, arrived today, 25.6.24
Both received a reminder letter yesterday, 24.6.24 saying they had to complete and return the NIP.
NIP says the speed they were doing (59) and on what road, but not what the limit is on that road, or by how much they were speeding. I’ve googled and the road is a 70 but currently has yellow average speed check cameras, I’m assuming it’s a 50. We’re assuming we’ve googled the correct road.

Dh has asked work to confirm what date is on the initial letter, as if it’s after 14 days from the offence I understand it’s not enforceable?

So, not trying to get out of the speeding charge, just want to know legalities and ensure dh/ds are dealt with correctly.

Is it best/reasonable for dh to ring the police and ask for a copy of the original letter that would have gone to the company so he can check the date, ask what the limit is on the road of the offence, tell them as it’s 2 months previous he doesn’t not know who was driving and can only confirm he was in the vehicle? I’m hoping they have a photo as that will clear it all up. Should he ask this?

Any other help and advice much appreciated.

Is it the Met?

I don't think they've nominated both DP & DS under S172(2)(a) of the Road Traffic Act.

Assuming the employer is the Keeper they've said that, after due diligence, they cannot say whether DP or DS was the driver. In that case they have a defence - S172(4).

If it looks like a husband and wife playing silly beggars such cases should 100% go to court, as it did in Hamilton.

If it's an employer in circs above then there must be a point at which a prosecution would not have sufficient prospect of success then it won't go to court. If there's a culture in offices dealing with these cases of sending all the problems to the Magistrates to sort out that's an abuse of process.

We really don’t want it to go to court .. we’re hoping to make sure legally everything has been done correctly. If it has, then it will be a case of seeing what the police do next. If it’s not been done legally correctly, then we’d maybe challenge the process.

Dh is checking with the company the date on the initial notice, just to rule that timeline in or out. It seems odd to have taken a further 6 weeks to notify the drivers? If the notices had come sooner, it would have maybe been easier to work out who was actually driving. As I said earlier, in the 8+ weeks since the offence, they’ve driven approx 6000 miles. How many people can remember who drove when, 8 weeks ago, 6000 miles ago?

@Cattery should the NIP have circled what the limit was? It shows … exceed 5/18/20/30/40/50/60 … then says they were doing 59mph.

@Cattery no it’s not the met.
@Bromptotoo they have indeed sent 2 x section 172, 1 to dh, 1 to ds, for the same offence.

5am is quite an unusual time. Maybe not in their job though.

Would either of their Goggle timelines show where they visited that day? Were did they stop before and after 5am? Long shot, but if they started from home, there might be doorbell camera footage showiing who was driving, or at a delivery depot or other stop?

Also check bank/credit card transactions for that date, in case that helps the memory.

The timing is correct as they left the house approx 4.30-5am. Our ring doorbell only goes back 1 month, but their van is parked over the way and the footage doesn’t pick up that far. They drive to a destination, do some repairs/maintenance, drive to their next job, or stay in that destination overnight if needs be. On this occasion they were driving 120 miles to their destination. There’s literally nothing we can use to pinpoint the driver. It’s very frustrating as we really want to deal with this correctly.

I’m happy and grateful for any/all suggestions.

If you know what road it occurred on, you can look it up on google maps and surely one of them will remember driving down a road. It’s a bit odd not to know.

They need to jog their memory. Where were they driving to? What job did they do that day? They must remember or ask for the photo to make it clear. This should be easily available online nowadays.

Do they have their location on their mobiles? If they can identify where they went on that day they may be able to remember who was driving. (Eg that's the day we went to Sprockets ltd in Manchester followed by Cracking Wensleydale plc )

@YellowDaffodilRedTulip @CommeUneVacheEspagnole they know what road it is, they drive this route regularly, it’s not odd that they don’t know who was driving, they drive together, sharing the driving for between 500 and 1000 miles per week. Its difficult to pinpoint a driver that happened 8 weeks and 6000-8000 miles ago! A pp has said the yellow average speed cameras don’t take a photo, they go if the reg number.

@MrsMoastyToasty their locations will be identical as they were travelling in the same vehicle. They drive from home, 120 miles to their destination then start work. They do this every day, but driving to different locations, returning to the same locations very often. I wish it was as straightforward as knowing where they visited to jog their memories. As above, this happened 8 weeks ago, and they’ve driven more than 6000 miles in that time.

Again, I’m happy for all and any ideas as to how to sort this, I’m not being a Debbie Downer dismissing everything for the sake of it. We genuinely want to get this sorted in the correct way. Does anyone have any knowledge of how the police will sort this given the scenario? Are they likely to drop the charge, more likely to go to court? Dh is going to ring them over the next few days, just trying to get help and advice in the meantime.

It's not good process. I drive a company car similar miles and although we don't share, if I did, I'd be documenting who drove on what day for this exact reason. I'm surprised it's not the company policy or they don't have to sign in etc as it is a legal requirement for the company for this exact reason.

I didn't read it was April 🤦🏾‍♀️ you might have to flip a coin on this. I doubt you can just say you don't know. 😭

If they can’t remember you played not guilty and you go to a trial where it’s rather embarrassing as you’re asked load and loads of questions about where you went /when you stopped /who sent emails during the time if they were the passenger who went to the loo, et cetera. If you lose, you could have costs for 3 to 600 quid.

Also, why don’t they have a driving log, surely accompany Wood demand it?

Is there a contact number? I once got a ticket and called them and I got through to the loveliest woman who talked me through it all. That was maybe ten years ago and the world has changed but that could help.

Do they have company fuel cards? If so, ask accounts for the bill to see if the car/van/truck was filled up that day and where. Then the petrol station may be able to provide CCTV (might need this requested by the police) to show who got out the driver's side.

@CommeUneVacheEspagnole I imagine they can say they don’t know .. but it’s obviously easier if it doesn’t go to court. You’re right about poor practise .. so going forward, that’s what they will do, good call. Yes there’s a number, dh is going to ring in a few days, just trying to get help and advice in the meantime.

@Johnhasalongmoustache I don’t think it will be embarrassing having to admit that you can’t remember something from 8 weeks, 6000+ miles ago 🤷🏻‍♀️ But court is something we’d rather avoid. If they could remember who was the passenger then this wouldn’t be a problem at all 😵‍💫

@FriendlyNeighbourhoodAccountant they have fuel cards but they’re only available to use at certain stations, so fuel is filled up close to home before any planned long journeys.

I feel like we’re thwarted at every suggestion/opportunity. Again, I do appreciate everyone’s suggestions.

A few days! Get him to call tomorrow!!! Court is an absolute pain in the arse and I'd imagine if one of them admitted fault it would be £100 and 3 points but court opens up all sorts of chaos like % of earnings, additional fees etc.

You keep writing "deal with correctly". I just wonder if the penalty would affect one more than the other as you seem so adamant to "deal with correctly". Clearly neither the company nor your family can identify who it was precisely, so someone in your family will need to take the hit. Who is it going to be?

But isn't it possible they filled up that morning close to home?

Or on the way home?

They both need to show that they have used due diligence with respect of whoever is using the vehicle. It will have to go to a hearing though. They both need to show how they’ve checked everything possible to establish who was driving. I would suggest that you implement a notebook or something like it in the vehicle so that you log whoever is driving from now on. To show that you have learnt something from the matter. Google due/reasonable diligence for advice. Good luck.

Just bloody pick the one who will be impacted the least, that's what any family would do in this situation

Not sure why the thread is taking a turn for the worse tbh 🤷🏻‍♀️

@CommeUneVacheEspagnole they have 28 days to respond from the date on the NIP... it’s day 4 now so a few more days is not going to make any difference. We’re giving a couple of days to give us the chance to investigate all avenues to find out who was driving.

@socialdilemmawhattodo neither have any points on their license or have ever had any convictions etc. I’m not sure why you think 1 should take the hit for the other - I’m pretty sure that’s not what the police would be saying 🤷🏻‍♀️

@FriendlyNeighbourhoodAccountant no, they left between 4.30 and 5 am, the van is always filled up the night before. If they’re local and leaving at a normal time, they’ll fill up on the way. They stayed overnight for 2 nights once at their destination.

It’s not a case of 1 drives there and back, or 1 does one way, 1 the other. They may chop and change on journeys, they may do 1 there, 1 back, or they 1 will do both ways. There’s no order to who drives, it’s just who, as and when.

@UnpackingBooksFromBoxes thank you. We’ve definitely learned from this, as I said earlier they’ll keep a log from now on. If this had come through earlier, it would have been easier to remember back.

@Nocturna Weird … I don’t think every family would do this 😵‍💫 Why would 1 take the rap for the other? That’s why I’m asking advice for what police procedure might be, and any advice on things we haven’t thought of in trying to determine who was driving. Some very good suggestions so far, which I’m thankful for, but unfortunately aren’t able to help. I’m pretty sure the police would not advise us just to choose one of them 😵‍💫