AIBU to think that the State of Israel is racist?

[CoteDAzur]

11 Dec 2008 13:34 GMT

DJ Israel Min:Israeli Arabs Should Live In Separate State-Report

LONDON (Dow Jones)--Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has said Israeli Arabs should leave Israel for a Palestinian state once such a state is established, The Jerusalem Post reports on its Web site Thursday.

"My solution for maintaining a Jewish and democratic state of Israel is to have two nation-states with certain concessions and with clear red lines," Livni said. "And among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'"

Livni, speaking in a meeting with Tel Aviv high school students, also hinted that kidnapped soldier Gilad Schalit could remain in the hands of Hamas in Gaza.

Full story: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1228728156919

-London bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; +44 (0)20 78 42 9330; [email protected]

sorry - that's what i meant - noone has a right to kick you out the country where u live.

But by your own logic, it would be OK for Israel to get the land if it won it during a war?

Quite cotedazur, and as such the Arabs do not have any in built right to the land either so perhaps they could recognise and accept Israel's present right to control their country, stop making open threats to wipe all the Jews off the face of the earth, and put some of their oil billions into Gaza and the West Bank to actually make the life of the Palestinians better (prosperity made a big difference to the Northern Ireland conflict). You might then see a reduction in Isreali aggression and peaceful co-existence in two nation states.

CDA: I agree that historic claims to the land are irrelevant, although dispensationalism does seem to hold a special place in some people's hearts.

It is not, however, irrelevant to look at how and why the Israeli state was formed. If you had cared to read in a little more detail (a) these people were not displaced as a result of the creation of Israel, in fact the original UN mandate envisaged the creation of specific territories for the Jewish and the Arab people; (b) these people were displaced as a result of the Arab-Israeli War which was initiated by the Arab League. That is entirely different to the forced eviction which you seem to imply. As I also mentioned, the creation of an the state was sanctioned by the international community.

Secondly, it would be a strange view indeed to think that the creation of state specifically for a certain ethno-religious race had no bearing on its character or policies only 60 years later. How can you credibly say that's irrelevant? What you can question is how that state can and should have evolved over that 60 year period.

The whole 'who has a right' to the land is a sideshow and a distraction. For pity's sake, they're both there, now. Neither is leaving. The question is how to create a peaceful solution?

Not touching this with a bargepole.

Cote you're a regular, no? I would have thought you would have known better.

Jews were living in the area and had done for millenia, despite constant persecution from just about everyone. The idea that 'Palestine' was a constant, defined state that always existed and was always populated by independent 'Palestinians' is completely wrong. The term Palestine was used to describe what was at the time part of Syria by the British in 1917.

The Cyprus situation is a good example. Half the country displaced overnight by parachuting Turks, land taken over, refugees etc. Not a good situation, something could and should be done about it. But you don't seem many Greek Cypriots blowing up buses or taking suicide bombs into Northern Cyprus.

I think if there was the remotest acceptance by the Arab states that Israel wasn't going anywhere, that would be a great leap forward.

thank you cestlavie and suedonim for your thoughtful posts

i don;t often see a comment from an MNer and think, i never want to cross paths with them again, but i have now.

sick of the Jews being the scapegoats for every problem in the world, same old record, lets blame the all powerful Jews, who control America and the West and hold us all to ransom

you can;t tar every Israeli, every Jew or every Palestinian or arab or a whole state with the same brush

indeed, there is a whole sect of judaism , who believe the israel should not exist.

Columbo - It is not 'my logic'. Have you read any history at all?

Normally, yes, a land conquered in battle would be owned by the winning side. Except that Israel has signed on several agreements since then, saying it will withdraw from Gaza and West Bank and that it will not build any settlements in these areas, with the understanding that they will be Palestinian areas in the future Palestinian country.

Which is why UN refers to these lands as "Occupied Palestinian Territories".

What lulu said

A sect of judiasm that thinks Israel should not exist?

shall i say the holocaust was a myth/wildly exaggerated to garner sympathy, and save somoene else the trouble of doing so?

yep, they are ultra orhodox, netuari something or other, can;t remember the name

yes ilovemydog - there is a sect of Judaism that believes Israel shoudln't exist

Neturei Karta is the name.

Neutari Karta

I agree that Arabs don't have any historic right to the lands in question, either.

"so perhaps they could recognise and accept Israel's present right to control their country, stop making open threats to wipe all the Jews off the face of the earth"

You must know at some level that not all Arabs are raving lunatics who threaten "to wipe all Jews off the face of the earth", just like not all Jews happy with their state's oppression of Palestinians.

I agree with lulumama. You can't tar a whole ethnic group with the same brush.

May I just remind everyone that I am all for Israel's right to exist, for Jews to live happily ever after and all that, but am outraged that Livni would say 20% of Israeli citizens should be kicked out of the country because they are Arab.

So, MrsMattie, do tell. How should I "know better"?

Yes there is sect but it is a tiny minority that hold no power whatsoever and exert minimal influence so I do not see their existance has to do with the massive problem of Israeli state sponsored racism.

CAD - you might want to spend a bit more time fomulating coherent factual posts instead of purely emotional responses if you don't want to invite comments such as the one I made. I was referring to historical facts that have already been mentioned on this thread several times, even if I was being a little facetious. And yes, I've read a fair bit of history and international law since I work in that area...

my point bamboo, is that it is useless to tar all Jews/Israelis as pro israel, zionists.

i am leaving this thread, as it is just going to be a 'lets hammer the Jews' extravaganza, and it sickens me, quite frankly.

there is wrong on both sides, i don;t think this trhead is going to achieve much more than divisiveness

CDA not CAD. DS on lap bouncing up and down watching Tom and Jerry on YouTube as I type

ladyworsley - Half the country [Cyprus] displaced overnight by parachuting Turks, land taken over, refugees etc.

Do you happen to know why Turks did that?

Just wondering, because your post reads like they just got all aggressive and felt like invading someone.