AIBU to think that the State of Israel is racist?

[CoteDAzur]

11 Dec 2008 13:34 GMT

DJ Israel Min:Israeli Arabs Should Live In Separate State-Report

LONDON (Dow Jones)--Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has said Israeli Arabs should leave Israel for a Palestinian state once such a state is established, The Jerusalem Post reports on its Web site Thursday.

"My solution for maintaining a Jewish and democratic state of Israel is to have two nation-states with certain concessions and with clear red lines," Livni said. "And among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'"

Livni, speaking in a meeting with Tel Aviv high school students, also hinted that kidnapped soldier Gilad Schalit could remain in the hands of Hamas in Gaza.

Full story: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1228728156919

-London bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; +44 (0)20 78 42 9330; [email protected]

cote, no sadly I don't have any close Jewish friends or relations but I have immense sympathy for them as a race because they have always been persecuted and hated.

This has been a good thread, because everyone I know in RL has total sympathy for the Palestinian position and it is nice to come across a more balanced debate.

"Its lack of good PR is obvious from reading your posts."

Really? Can you tell me where my posts make it obvious that Israel has had bad PR?

"Do you have a Jewish Israeli friend?" WTF?

I think she means because a few of us on this thread are not falling over ourselves crying out "Oooh aaah, Israel can do EVERYTHING for they have SUFFERED so much!", that shows they haven't been doing a good job of PR.

I guess her definition of good PR is when everyone in the world supports one country unconditionally

Earthworm - Read the thread, and that comment will be clearer.

Don't read the thread, and you will be scratching your head going "WTF...WTF..."

I also have great sympathy and respect for Jewish people.

That does not stop me from condemning the oppressive policies of the state of Israel, though. And loads of Jewish people agree with me on this.

I've read the thread, and I can see that you're implying that ladyworsley's knowledge of the situation is sketchy - referring to her Greek Cypriot friend post earlier.

I'm still calling you on it. You're being rather rude and confrontational aren't you?

confrontational, perhaps, but not rude.

And?

ladyworsley's claim to an understanding on Cyprus situation was based on having a Greek Cpriot friend. Demonstrably, that 'understanding' was extremely weak. ("maybe Turks didn't think that Turkey was sufficient for them and they needed half of little Cyprus as well", indeed )

Her understanding of Palestinian situation does not sound any deeper ('Arabs should sort Palestinians out with their land and money' ) so yes, I do ask myself if the source of this wisdom is a single Jewish Israeli friend.

If you find this unbearably rude and confrontational, you must have led quite a sheltered life, my friend.

(sighs) I don't find it unbearably rude and confrontational. I just don't see why you want to keep making what border on personal remarks (the friend thing, me having having led a sheltered life etc). I think you're a bit hectoring and confrontational, especially when the poster you were being confrontational to has been polite and even thanked you for an interesting debate...

I guess I should have known better than to look at this thread, given the title.

I'm flattered you are so interested in me, but don't you have anything to say about the thread subject now that you are here?

AYBU to think that the State of Israel is racist? I think so. I think that to call the actual nation of Israel "racist" is a bit strong.

Personally I don't think the remarks quoted in your OP were meant in the sense of ethnic cleansing, as some people have been suggesting on this thread. There have in the past been mass movements of people for religious/political reasons -I'm thinking in particular of Indian partition and the creation of the Islamic states of Pakistan and Bangladesh. You could argue that those people moving in both directions had ancestral rights to their land, but they had to move anyway. Not everybody was overjoyed about it and for many families it was highly traumatic, being torn from their roots and neighbours.

That the creation of Israel and the suggested accompanying Palestinian State would have involved people having to move from one area to another in the region doesn't automatically put it on a par with the genocidal treatment of say, native Americans or indigenous Australians, as you seem to have suggested.

As has already been explained on this thread the creation of Israel was an internationally sanctioned thing that at the time also enshrined the rights of the people already living in the area to have their own state. Prior to this, there was no Palestinian state as such. This was at a time when the rest of Europe was being carved up after WWII, so it wasn't exactly an isolated incident of landgrabbing, nor was it an act of aggression.

It is interesting that you are outraged by what you perceive as the racism of Israel, yet you do not express outrage or even recognition of overt racist and genocidal comments made for eg by Ahmadinejad, Hamas etc.

Thanks earthworm and I agree with your historical analysis.

I despair sometimes at the level of tolerence shown at the extreme language used by Arabs against Jews.

As another poster said, (imo) the majority do indeed view Israel as a cancer to be eradicated. And I think the leaders of some Arab states are happy with the status quo because it acts as a unifying force against the west and democracy, for their millions of repressed peoples.

I feel for Israel at the moment, an impoverished America is not good news for them.

Hi!
I didn't read the whole thread. But want to post my opinion. I have connections to Jewish people-my aunt is married to a Jewish man and her son, thus my cousin married a girl and they moved to Israel long years ago. OHm one more thing,my aunt lives in Germany.

So basically, Palestinians and Jewish?? Israiely people in 1949 declared a state of Israel what was on that land???? Nothing. Palestinians were happy to share a few stones in the desert. With years, israeli people made from that piece of nothing a beutiful blooming state. The place that they are proud of. Palestinians on the other hand made nothing, they were living in their houses and did nothing to improve them.Now they want the land back, now when there is water, proper houses, infrastructure... Everything

And I hope none of you will see on the news a bus stop which was blasted to pieces by some arab. From that bus stop my cousin and his family travel every day to work and school. So no, Israerly not a rasist state. They are just fighting for what they have achieved!!

It is very similar to situation with Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania when russian military people were moving there in Soviet period and then when USSR broke up they claimed it is there home. when they were taking houses from native families they didn't think about them but when they were asked to leave they started to say it is not right....
Smae actually in Ukraine, in our Crimea.

ukrainianmum, my mother has similar views to you about "improving" the country, only you can substitute "white Australians" and "Aboriginees" in your middle paragraph.

I bet that given the amount of investment from abroad that Israel had access to, I could create a beautiful blooming state in any desert in teh world. Doesnt mean I have the right to kick half the people who live there off it to do that.
you dont have to take polar sides in this debate - most of us just want to see amends made for a basic injustice, instead of yet more propaganda and talk about Palastinians being terrorists.

I agree entirely with Cote's posts on this thread

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. "

Zuhair Mohsen, leader of the Syria-controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) between 1971 and 1979.

I notice that those western countries who decided to give away that land to the Jews didn't offer any of their own land. They could have let them have Nevada for example which was virtually empty back then.

For that matter lets save the Israelis all this trouble by moving them here. They can have Cornwall. I'm sure the rest of the UK will be happy to pay for relocating those living there now and make room for them in their homes.

As for bombings. I don't like that kind of thing, but both sides do it. Also I understand that in World War 2 the french resistence used to blow things up with explosives we supplied.

I was in Israel briefly about 10 years ago. I didn't meet any vile, horrible people. I did meet a great number of decent, thoughtful, beautiful people I liked very much. I didn't move solely in exalted circles and I didn't meet just people from one conflict party.

They are like people everywhere and they do not have to be better. I think it can be unhelpful for those outside the conflict to go too far in what they feel strongly as a kind of righteous anger on behalf of one or the other party involved. IMO it exacerbates an atmosphere of seperation and mistrust which is already (or even back then was) palpably tense and fraught.

If you feel very strongly about the place, it would make sense to me to consider supporting one of the many organisations/movements which try to bring the children together. If they are not constantly bombarded with messages of hatred and suspician and all the rest of it, although hard to envisage tbh right now, they'd have a hope of building something good TOGETHER.

That's something I have heard Palestinians say to me Onager. That yes it was dreadful how the Jewish people suffered in Europe, in particular during the holocaust, but in reality as long as there have been Jews here. However they will tell you , WE did not do that to them, why not give them a part of Germany?

Idon't claim to be versed in the intricacies of the conflict and the history of the region but Zionism was there as a movement before the 2nd WW. So the seeds had initially been planted to recreate a stronger living Jewish tradition in the area anyway which is probably partly why the Jewish state was set up there and not elsewhere.

Hmm I remember reading that at one point, Israel was going to be somewhere in Africa.

Ukranianmum, your post is just a regurgitation of Israeli propaganda films from the sixties.

It's not only for Australia and Aborignes that particular piece of propaganda can be replicated. It's done nicely for America and the Native Americans and large swathes of the British empire at one time. It's not a particularly original myth.

ladyworsley - as a race that has been persecuted and hated the Israelis should have a bit more sympathy when it comes to them persecuting and hating others.

I don't think it's appropriate to decree that certain races should feel certain things about oppression etc. It makes me feel a bit uncomfortable to tell anyone how they should feel. I don't see why jewish people (or black people or Australian Aborigines) should have any more social conscience than anyone else. (Or any less, for that matter.)

The location of the Jewish homeland wasn't just plucked out of the air - despite the diaspora Jews never gave up their claim to and yearning for the Land of Israel, as attested by prayers, blessings, pilgrimage, resettlement which actually began early in the 19th C. before the modern idea of Zionism was born, etc.

I have read that genetic studies suggest that the modern day Palestinians are actually descendants of ethnic Jews who stayed in Palestine after 70 AD. They adapted to a whole series of conquests - Christian, Muslim, Ottoman and British - by learning their new masters' languages, by religious conversion, intermarriage etc.

History and human evolution is generally a lot more complex than suits us. What matters now is surely accepting the situation as it is - I agree with a PP who mentioned the charities that support and educate children of both sides and try to bring them together.