AIBU to think that the State of Israel is racist?

[CoteDAzur]

11 Dec 2008 13:34 GMT

DJ Israel Min:Israeli Arabs Should Live In Separate State-Report

LONDON (Dow Jones)--Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has said Israeli Arabs should leave Israel for a Palestinian state once such a state is established, The Jerusalem Post reports on its Web site Thursday.

"My solution for maintaining a Jewish and democratic state of Israel is to have two nation-states with certain concessions and with clear red lines," Livni said. "And among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'"

Livni, speaking in a meeting with Tel Aviv high school students, also hinted that kidnapped soldier Gilad Schalit could remain in the hands of Hamas in Gaza.

Full story: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1228728156919

-London bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; +44 (0)20 78 42 9330; [email protected]

Hmmm. A rather simplistic view of citizenship I feel there CDA.

"I'm a history graduate and have a Greek Cypriot friend"

Oh wow. A Greek Cypriot friend, no less. And the depth of your knowledge on the Cyprus conflict is that "maybe the Turks didn't think that Turkey was sufficient for them and that they needed half of little Cyprus as well" Sorry, but

Without going into detail and hijacking this thread in the process, you might like to know that Turks were living in Cyprus along with Greeks. The island gained independence from the British, and there was a kind of power sharing agreement between Greek & Turkish communities (1960). President Makarios proposed unilaterally changing the constitution ("13 amendments") which Turkish Cypriots felt would diminish their political position (1963). Civil clashes ensued, and within a year, hundreds were dead on both sides. Greek Cypriots were in control of government by then, and Turkish Cypriots were living in armed enclaves, supported by Turkey.

All of which may have resolved itself, if not for one development: Military junta took power in Greece (1964) and backed a coup d'etat in Cyprus, aiming "Enosis" (unification of Cyprus with mainland Greece). Does anyone want to take a guess at what would then happen to the Turkish population, tens of thousands of whom were already displaced their homes looted, and living in shelters under armed guard?

At this point, Turkey invaded the north of the island, giving as justification the Treaty of Guarantee (1960) which bans Cyprus from any political union with any other state and requires signatories (UK, Greece, Turkey) to guarantee its independence, with force and on their own if no agreement can be reached.

Didn't your Greek Cypriot friend tell you any of this?

Personally, I think the aftermath could and should have been managed much better, and there was little reason for continued separation of the island, especially since the coup d'etat failed following Turkey's intervention and Makarios returned.

In any case, I hope you now see that Turkey's army didn't just parachute into Cyprus because they thought Turkey wasn't sufficient for them.

(End of thread hijack)

round em up and exterminate em.

the palestinians that is....

I have always been completely stunned and amazed by the sheer hypocrisy of the state of Israeli and its policies towards the Palestinians.

"arab citizens of Israel are true citizens of this country"- unbelievably simplistic

Are they official citizens? Check.

Do they have Israeli passports? Check.

Do they vote? Check.

Does Israeli state count their numbers among its citizens? Check.

What other proof do you need to be convinced that these people are citizens of the country called Israel?

Oh wait. Maybe Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website can clear the air:

Arab Israelis are citizens of the Israel with equal rights. In 1948, Israel's Declaration of Independence called upon the Arab inhabitants of Israel to "participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions".

The political involvement of the Arab sector is manifested through both national and municipal elections.

The Declaration also promises that Israel will "ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex" and guarantees "freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture".

oh and imo there is a distinct difference between people of the Jewish faith and the policy makers\army in Israel.

though the 2 overlap in places, of course.

I think the thread title is a bit inflammatory. Is the state of Israel racist? In its constitution, probably not. If 20% of its citizens are arab, then I imagine that constitutionally, it is not technically racist in the way that the South African state was. In its practice, it most certainly is of course. In its citizens, some of them are some of them aren't, just like any other nation on earth. In its foreign minister, i suppose it depends on how you interpret her statement. At first glance, it looks like a simple racist statement. At second glance, it could be an unfortunate way of saying that if you are an Israeli Arab, then you need to define yourself primarily as Israeli if you want to live in Israel; if you want to define yourself as a different national, then you need to go and do that elsewhere. Which isn't a million miles from what even the Labour Party are now saying about immigrants to the UK - integrate or go. (The difference being that the grandparents of the people about whom this sentiment is being expressed in Israel, used to live there, while those about whom the sentiment is being expressed in Britain, didn't. Whether that makes the sentiment more valid in one context than another, is another debate.)

I accept that that may be a charitable interpretation of her statement, however. Mind you, a bit more charity on all sides re this wouldn?t be a bad thing.

Like others on this thread I am sometimes stunned by what Israel is allowed to get away with and with its continual flouting of International Law and UN Resolutions.

The comments quoted in the OP are certainly racist, and make me think of ethnic cleansing.

yes it is racist, and v depressing that Obama had to come out before he was even elected and say that America wouldnt stop supporting it. But then they arent too choosey about what regimes they support are they.

I don't like this thread at all. For all its faults, Israel also gets terrible PR and bias in the press and most of us have no real knowledge of the situation. There are a lot of countries with a worse human rights record than Israel, and they are not of interest to the press as everyone has such an interest in Israel. We don't hear of good things about the country, with universities being inclusive to all etc. Anyway, I am not going to get into this thread and hope that it does not get worse.

ilovemydog - just in case you're still reading - I'm pretty certain Lulu and Ruby are actually RL twins, and lulu wasn't being sarcastic at all...

OP, I agree with you, but it is a state that we made.

No, I didn't think she was being sarcastic... I didn't know they were twins, but incredible that they were answering virtually the same things at the same time. Absolutely amazing.

frankie - Israel doesn't get bad PR in the west, in fact it gets the best possible PR that money and influence can buy.

Yes, there are much worse regimes in the world, but we don't call them western, modern, and we certainly don't call them democracies.

There is no other respected country in the west that oppresses an entire nation, keeps them in ghettos, with little freedom of movement and very limited access to education, health services, and even food and medicine. And keeps eating away at that land these people call home.

Pro-Israel lobby in Israel is so strong that at every presidential election, whether or not a candidate is a "friend of Israel" becomes an issue. You might remember that concerns about his middle name being "Hussein" forced Obama to declare before the election that he would support Israel.

Do you think that is because Israel doesn't do a stellar job of PR?

Israel has been the largest annual recipient of US foreign aid since the '70s - about $2 billion per annum goes to this little country, which mostly goes to military expenditures (buying guns, planes, tanks, etc from the US). Since 2007, this aid has increased to $3 billion per year.

I wonder what would happen if US didn't financially support Israel's military to this degree. If their military might decreased, would they find it necessary to settle the issue of Palestinian refugees rather than keep them in limbo while settlements mushroom on their land?

Before anyone suggests such a cut in military spending would be the end of Israel, let me remind you that Israel is a nuclear power and obviously has the backing of US, so I sincerely doubt if any of its neighbours are about to attempt an attack, some Iranian nut's inflammatory declarations notwithstanding.

Yes I can't really see how anyone can say Israel gets bad PR.

In the normal run of events, it would be a pariah state because of the way it carries on. It isn't a pariah state because of extraordinarily positive PR.

Its lack of good PR is obvious from reading your posts.

Instead of blaming Israel, how about looking at the behaviour of the other Arab states around there? If Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria were that bothered about the plight of their so called Palestinian brothers, then surely they would each have offered some land as a Palestinian homeland; made sure this gift of land was enshrined in law and then everyone is happy.

Couldn't agree more scaryteacher.

Arab people have more than enough land and natural resources to be able to sort this issue out.

What is a country anyway? A refuge, a place of belonging, security. Exactly what the Jews haven't had for 2000 years.

And whether the OP wants to admit it or not, plenty of Jewish people consider this region to be their natural homeland.

erm hate to point out the obvious but the Palestinians DID have a homeland....

scaryteacher - Why should they go anywhere else, though? That is their home. And would you believe, it isn't only the Jews whose need for a home is important.

Really, are you saying that it is OK to displace, keep under control, and oppress a whole people, as long as the oppressors really needed a place of their own?

Oh and nobody else should protest either. If they are not happy, they should just give chunks of their own country away instead

With all due respect, did that feel rational when you wrote it?

ladyworsley - Do you have a Jewish Israeli friend, as well?

No, they should pack up and go live with the other ARABS.

dontcha know....

noiamnot - True. And they still do have a homeland. Which is occupied.