AIBU to think that the State of Israel is racist?

[CoteDAzur]

11 Dec 2008 13:34 GMT

DJ Israel Min:Israeli Arabs Should Live In Separate State-Report

LONDON (Dow Jones)--Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni has said Israeli Arabs should leave Israel for a Palestinian state once such a state is established, The Jerusalem Post reports on its Web site Thursday.

"My solution for maintaining a Jewish and democratic state of Israel is to have two nation-states with certain concessions and with clear red lines," Livni said. "And among other things I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'"

Livni, speaking in a meeting with Tel Aviv high school students, also hinted that kidnapped soldier Gilad Schalit could remain in the hands of Hamas in Gaza.

Full story: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1228728156919

-London bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; +44 (0)20 78 42 9330; [email protected]

without taring a whole nation with the same brush - I don't think there is any doubt in my mind that the idea of a nation where alternative cultures and religions are not welcomed is not a good think - I include other nations in this not just the idea of Arabs being encouraged to leave Israel.
In a modern world where we should be encouraging respect and understanding of others I feel this is a retrograde step.

These ideals are not a good thing.. are they descriminatory on the grounds of race - yes.

Anyway CDA - I did say YANBU to your OP question - it's just that I also believe that there is probably greater racism directed towards Jews as a result of all this.

Can't get into it any more than that, too depressing.

Columbo - No emotion here. How about you?

Have you missed the facts I referred to in my posts? Like, 20% of Israel's citizens being Arab ("Israeli Arabs"), and that this is the chunk that Livni is talking about kicking out?

FGS CDA give it a rest.

You did appear to contradict yourself, I facetiously pointed it out and went on to regret it but I can't be arsed to argue about it - so no, I'm not emotional. And I don't want to fight.

CDA, as I mentioned it would be a strange view indeed to think that the creation of state by the international community specifically for a certain ethno-religious race had no bearing on its character or policies only 60 years later. Secondly, it would be equally strange to imagine that if those 60 years had been spent in semi-permanent warfare with parties and states which refuse to recognise its right to exist then the outlook of that state would be insular and protective of those it was originally set up in favour of.

In any normal course of events, obviously a statement like the one you reference would be racist and unwarranted but each situation needs to take into account the dynamics of that situation. Was, for example, the expulsion of the British from India a simple racist act by the fledgling Indian state? This is not meant to be an analogy, but merely to point out that taking a statement in isolation is pointless. In particular, in a situation as complex as that in Palestine.

I find this thread sickening and disappointing. OP, the phrase "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is well applied to your posts. You have certainly not demonstrated to me an indepth knowledge of this incredibly complex situation, which has thousands of years of history behind it. It is simply not possible to talk about this subject reasonably on such a thread and considering some of the greatest minds in this world are still discussing these issues, it seems facetious to tackle it here.

These posts will do nothing except enflame and upset people. I am already upset and horrified and am now leaving this thread. I should never have come on it. Flame me if you must but I just couldn't read it and say nothing.

cote, maybe the Turks didn't think that Turkey was sufficient for them and that they needed half of little Cyprus as well. Doesn't quite apply to the Jews does it, as they didn't actually have anywhere in our whole planet that they could call home before Israel, and it seems even that sliver of land is too big for some Arabs (not just minority extremists but official state policy of some Arab countries).

Sorry I should add that I didn't read the actual title of this thread . Trying to have a political online convo and balance struggling child on knee not compatible - in my defence.

I don't agree that the State of Israel is racist. Only that the comments quoted in the OP proposing expulsion of Arab Iraelis is technically racist.

Why are Arabs living in Israel?? Jewish people not illegally occupying the land. It is their land isn't it? I know that some of their policies are outrageous, but with their history I'm gonna cut them some slack iykwim.

In the sense that it could be construed as persecution under the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees.

cestlavie - "creation of state by the international community specifically for a certain ethno-religious race"

I know you said this before. And I replied that if that were so very important, they should NOT have given CITIZENSHIP to so many Arabs - 20 PERCENT of Israel's citizens are Arab.

You seem to be saying it's OK if they now decide to kick those Israeli citizens out of their own country. Please say it ain't so.

Thanks Lulu/Ruby - are you twins

Always assumed Judiasm and Zionism was hand in glove. Guess not...

Lulu - aside from one post, I don't think there is anti semetic feeling; rather just people not knowing history...

scifinerd - Do enlighten us, if you feel our knowledge is lacking. Please.

Why do Arabs want to live in Israel??? Sorry. I don't get that.

actually, ilovemydog, we are !

ladyworsley - "cote, maybe the Turks didn't think that Turkey was sufficient for them and that they needed half of little Cyprus as well"

With all due respect, you are woefully ignorant on the subject. Do read up on it. For example, Google the words: Greece Junta annex Cyprus, and see what comes up.

Wikipedia's entry on the history of Cyprus is also a good place to start.

"Why do Arabs want to live in Israel??? Sorry. I don't get that."

Possibly because they have been living there for generations, even before the English decided to award the land to others.

Sorry but at the question.

Would you also like to know why Indian tribes want to live in USA?

It was a genuine question - no need to be sarcastic

Yeah, it was a genuine question. I still reckon I'd move if I were an Arab living there. Seems, to a degree, pointlessly confronational and at odds with best interests to stay imo.

CDA: you misunderstand me. At no point have I said that this is acceptable. What I have said that the comment needs to be put in a broader political and geographical context.

On a very basic level, does this comment imply that they are supportive of a separate Palestinian state? The actual comment "and among other things, I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them your national solution lies elsewhere" suggests so, which would mean a marked change in Israel policy. It does not suggest, let's just kick them out, but alternatively a return to what was originally envisaged by the UN back in 1948 with an Israeli and Palestinian state co-existing side by side.

Your, well they gave 20% of these people citizenship is also somewhat simplistic. They didn't. These people came under the Israeli state as a result of the Arab-Israeli war and subsequent annexation of Arab territories. How they gained this citizenship and what the nationality of these people on a de facto rather than de jure basis is pretty darn important since it ties in with the entire discussion of the disputed territories and the future of them.

I am not, as I said, disagreeing with you, merely saying in this region of the world, simple statements are very rarely as simple as they sound.

cote, I'm a history graduate and have a Greek Cypriot friend, so I'm happy with my knowledge level.

I have found this quite a refreshing debate as it hasn't been nearly as one sided and politically correct as I was expecting.

I'm sure that if the Israelis felt more secure and the Palestinians more prosperous, then the two communities could live peacefully side by side.

cestlavie - Israel has always said it supported a separate Palestinian state, although its encouragement of mushrooming Jewish settlements in Palestinian territories has been at odds with this view.

Arab citizens of Israel are true citizens of this country on a both de facto and de jure basis, so I don't know what you are talking about there.

There are also Arab residents of Israel who have not demanded Israeli citizenship. Maybe those were the people you were referring to re "de facto/de jure citizenship"

"arab citizens of Israel are true citizens of this country"- unbelievably simplistic. Please research Jewish history before making comments like this.

And what country in the world doesn't have a debate about its "true citizens"? How far back do you want to go? We humans are always fighting about land, but we'd all be a lot better of if we favoured non violent progress over terrorism.

I've nothing against Israelis and I'm sure that those who were homeless jumped at the chance for a homeland of their own. I know I would have. huddled with my remaining relatives in a refugee camp I probably wouldn't have thought too deeply about the owners of the country I was taking either. I probably would have later, but it was a bit late then.

However Livni certainly sounds racist to me to want to expel Israeli Arabs.

NowICanSpellGeansaiNollaig you said "I still reckon I'd move if I were an Arab living there. Seems, to a degree, pointlessly confronational and at odds with best interests to stay imo"

Would you say the same about black people in this country who are unwelcome because of their color?. Isn't that the BNP line? that they'd be better off going back where they came from.
Though in this case 'where they came from' is right there where they are living.

OP YANBU. How someone can possibly suggest all arabs should get out of Israel is unbelievable! People are being kicked out of the land they have lived on for generations - just because they were 'given' the land doesn't mean Israelis have a right to try and ethnically cleanse Israel of all arabs.