Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

I don't understand how she's still allowed to do videos and put them online with no come back. When my DD was in ICU we werent allowed videos incase you were recording information about other children, only photos as long as we were super careful to not include anyone else and handovers were protected so you couldnt hear other children's information. The blantant disregard for other children's privacy is awful.

please be careful what you post otherwise this thread will be finished!

One aspect of the ECHR’s decision is that it raised some doubt as to whether it had jurisdiction to issue any interim measures against the UK in this case even had it wanted to, as the case had already been submitted to another international body for investigation (ie the UNCRPD).

And obviously the thread shouldn’t be pulled. Inappropriate posts should be deleted, but there really is no point to Mumsnet if we cannot discuss major news stories without getting threads deleted. Plus I expect a further urgent application to the High Court tomorrow.

Yea in the Hard case he got moved to a hospice. But he wasn't as medically vulnerable and survived for a period of time off the ventilator.

In this case it's questionable his heart will survive the removal of the infusions.

It's such a sad case all around.

I didn’t suggest that at all - I took issue with someone describing his mother as putting him through things. That’s not what she’s doing.

That’s not at all the same as saying it doesn’t matter what happens to dead bodies.

In the Gard are though, while the family were and remained angry, they did work with the medical staff at the end and Charlie was able to be transferred to a hospice for the last days of his life.

In Archie’s case this isn’t possible. I suspect the fact the hospital haven’t rushed to publicise the time when life support will be withdrawn means that they are preparing to withdraw it at this very time.

Unlike requests to continue Archie’s treatment, the hospital don’t have to agree to anything at this stage, and they don’t have to keep treating Archie while his parents attempt to go to court to have him moved. At this point it will be a flat no, and that will be that.

I don't see alot of compassion in some posts. Some are very harsh and judgemental.

I don't see alot of compassion in some posts. Some are very harsh and judgemental.

Some. A small minority. And as is the case on MN daily they are deleted.

I don't agree with censoring discussion for the majority because of a few comments of the minority.

And even then nothing that's been said on here is anything close to the accusations of execution that have allowed to stand in the MSM.

I think this case should actually spark a bigger debate once Archie has gone. As a first world humanitarian country we need to protect human rights and that especially includes those of children. After charlie gard his parents wanted to campaign to have the law changed that only parents could make medical decisions for their children and not courts. This is such a dangerous and evil president to set and must not be allowed.

@Supersimkin2 What is legally unclear? What I see is a desperate and vulnerable mother who has been ruthlessly exploited by a misogynistic, pseudo-religious organisation and pushed into pursuing every possible legal avenue to save her child, who could never have survived, and has been told he cannot survive by every medical and legal professional involved, except the ones bankrolling her. Several courts have repeatedly ruled it’s in Archie’s best interests to withdraw treatment, and the reason it’s been drawn out is because she has been funded and brainwashed by a cult and refused to accept any professional advice. I do not hold her at all responsible, as I said, she’s been despicably exploited. But the process has worked exactly as it should. And while I find her actions excusable (except her vilifying health professionals) I struggle to find anything noble or even selfless about them. What do you think should be changed?

I think a discussion about the principles is one thing, people coming on and dragging up things like a newspaper article in 2014 which has nothing to do with the case just seems quite spiteful, stating he committed suicide when I think it is the coroner who makes that decision. Some more posts should be deleted.

It’s not fair to inflict the unpredictability of Hollie’s response onto a hospice. The 8 security guards that have been outside her room have been there for a reason. A hospice is supposed to be a gentle, calm place.

That's a huge oversimplification .Charlie's Law is designed to reduce conflict and, yes, restrict court involvement but not exclude it. They've been working in a draft bill which I think will be ready Autumn maybe?
I also can't see what needs to change in terms of legal rights. People should have the right of appeal.

I agree about you last point. That's for coroners to decide.

However this topic is called in the news. We shouldn't censor which year people can discuss articles from. Lots of links to past articles have been linked here. For various points of discussion.

I'm a believer that if something is in the public domain by consent of the author or published by the author themselves then it's fair to discuss publicly.

Hopefully that way the next generations will start to actually understand the far reaching consequences of SM and a WWW.

You make material public - the public will read and comment 🤷‍♀️

I fully agree with this also.

I don't see alot of compassion in some posts. Some are very harsh and judgemental

I think there has been huge amount of compassion expressed towards Archie and the protection of his best interests.

In addition the vast majority of posters have expressed compassion and sympathy to Hollie and the rest of the family even if they do not agree with the choices being made.

Some posts have been judgemental yes, especially in light of some of the inflammatory rhetoric Hollie has deployed against the hospital and HCP's treating her son and the fact that this has led some people who've faced equally difficult circumstances, but made different choices, question their decisions.

Fundamentally, if we are honest the courts have "judged" that Hollie is not advocating in Archie's best interests wrt to wanting to continue treatment and looking on social and mainstream media, public sympathy is starting to wain for her stance, if not her situation.

I'm not sure what the best step is now for the hospital if Hollie goes to court again. I understand posters suggesting they should withdraw treatment before her legal team can appeal against, but that does seem a big ask from the HCP's being expected to do so.

Maybe the legal and ethical rights of a desperately sick, unconscious and dying child being photographed or filmed snd posted on social media needs to be reviewed

I think she has said he has ADHD - it seems to have been mentioned several times in news reports and SM. At one point he was out of school for two or three years, which people with children with SEN will tell you is only too common, because there just aren't enough specialist school places and local authority SEN departments can be pretty crap.

There’s been nothing from the hospital or holly though since the ruling.

I suspect the hospital are in fact preparing to withdraw treatment tonight.

Previously the hospital gave them the option to go to court re the continuation of treatment, but giving time to go to court to have Archie taken abroad isn’t something they’re going to do. Because they know that it is just 100% not possible to do, and there is absolutely nothing to be gained by going to court.If they’re going to take him abroad they might as well just withdraw life support, because that will amount to the same thing.

I don’t agree with a lot of what Hollie has said or done but tonight I can’t find it within me to feel anything but sympathy for her. Take away the circus of it all and she’s just a mom who is now going to have to say goodbye to her to son and it’s incredibly sad and she must be heartbroken.

I am sorry for your loss. 💐

We lost Dad in March. It was an unexpected outcome from a biopsy. His body just shut down from complications and there was no point in trying to fight it, no matter how much we wanted him to stay with us.

Still hurts, though, always will.

I think she has done an interview on sky news tonight, after the ECHR ruling. It's linked on the DFA page but I haven't watched it yet.

Exactly. This is a very important point for people to be mindful of when referring to him as 'dead'. Alfie has not been declared dead either medically or legally even though he is effectively deceased; it's this distinction that is why this is is still ongoing and is an important case legally. Alfie's mother cannot accept that he is 'gone' and part of the reason why is because he is technically still alive.

Very short interview with her here:

news.sky.com/story/archie-battersbees-family-lose-new-bid-to-delay-withdrawing-life-support-as-european-court-will-not-interfere-with-uk-decisions-12665026

That interview is very telling. She said “I promised I’d fight till the end and that’s what I’ve done.” She knows realistically that this is the end.