Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

I dont agree with your last sentence at all. I remember people kept saying this about the other two cases, that it was all about how awful the staff were when giving the news or moving forward with the processes

The issue is that there are some people in life who are illogical, combative, anti social, some are personality disordered. So when faced with a situation like this they can only respond in one way no matter how empathetic the message

Some people never accept. There was a Louis Theroux documentary about people kept in vegetative states long-term in special facilities. In some cases they had been there for many many years, paid for by the family with no change. It's a very good documentary, not sure which series it is part of but very thought-provoking.

What do you suggest, if he was already diagnosed with brain stem death after 3 days then no amount of time on life support would change the outcome. Is it ever in a patients best interests to keep someone on life support with no chance of recovery, just to deteriorate until the family comes to terms with this awful situation,. Keeping someone on life support for Organ donation is a separate issue.

Brutal as it may sound, the NHS will recommend turning off life support as soon as it is confirmed someone is dead. They can't be in the position (that they have been forced into here) where they keep people artificially alive because the family is not ready to let them go.

Every last possibility for what though? What is the actual goal in all this? He’s dead. There are no last possibilities.

Hollie is very focused on the medical team's desire to turn off life support after 3 days, that wasn't enough time for her to even begin to comprehend what was happening.

What's the timescale then?

How do doctors know when a parent is ready?

The reality is when death is happening, will happen or has happened it has to be dealt with there and then.

Read the many heartbreaking stories of posters on here who have had hours max at times to make that decision.

We only have Ms Dances opinion of how the conversation went about. But we have documented evidence she refused to discuss even testing for brain stem functioning or mediation.

I have a genuine real fear that even if this drags on against the court ruling and Archie's best interests and he dies naturally she'll try and accuse s staff member of medical malpractice and giving the wrong dose or something or at the wrong time.

She's angry and lashing out against the world in her grief. But she isn't and hasn't acted rationally from the start and the sixties aren't responsible for that.

I do agree though that some doctors bedside manner could be better. They forget we don't deal with death like they do and medical terms aren't the most comforting at a time we can't really comprehend them or understand their meaning.

I've seen my beloved FIL die having had to make the horrendous decision to withdraw life support. And you are told exactly what might happen and it's incredibly distressing. He did look like he was trying to breathe on his own, but this is simply a reaction to the all the systems being taken down.

I think the parents should have more support in this decision. It's an awful decision to make for someone you love deeply.

i actually think there needs to be a press enquiry after this as well.

It’s completely irresponsible of the likes of sky news and whoever else to start talking about hope in other countries etc without finding the actual facts, speaking to the doctors in question, establishing who they are and what they represent.

The news channels were actively banned from promoting COVID and antivaxx conspiracies, this should be the same.

Wasnt there some false allegation made against the nurses in another high profile case that they gave 3 iv drugs which was untrue

@loislovesstewie we would never coordinate a collection, but like you I have a strong urge to thank them and make a gesture of solidarity. I'm going to send them a card and supermarket voucher to buy treats or whatever.

I seen that, but there was a man on it who the drs wanted to turn the machine off and he went in to make a recovery. I expect its stories like that that Archie's mum is holding on to

Many years ago I was a teacher to two teenagers who’d both suffered severe brain damage, one through accident, one through illness.

They breathed independently, swallowed puréed food and liquids fed to them. They wore nappies and were completely immobile though one would move in a way that suggested they were uncomfortable or in pain ( I was advised it was probably muscle spasms and I was taught to manoeuvre their limbs to hopefully alleviate pain) No speech, did not turn their heads to sound, did not smile and focusing their eyes on an object was not always successful.
They'd suffered their brain injuries 11 and 13 years before I met them, were superbly and lovingly cared for 24/7 but their conditions had never improved since their accident/ illness all those years before. There was no recovery for them although they had physiotherapy, music therapy and the highest level of physical care. Sadly their brains were damaged beyond any chance of repair and I cannot see that Archie could ever recover from his.
RIP JA and ST, I still think of you both and your loving families.

Sadly the court ruling refers several times, as gently as possible, to the poor child's brain not only being dead; it is disintegrating to the point its coned, slid down into the spinal canal, there is no blood flow up there and the brain stem is necrotic. This poor child is not comatose, not in any state anyone could ever recover from, he has been dead for some time and his body is breaking down despite that his heart is being kept beating. I am desperately sorry for the mother in denial and unable to face this because I can't imagine how you would go about it even having read the posts of several mothers on this thread who have been in this awful position, but this child is not in a debatable state where any medicine might help.

I think there needs to be an investigation in to the video streaming that allows this catastrophic sequalae to happen. These should never be allowed.

@lemmein I agree, it is true that in the lighter 'vegetative' states, some people previously thought to be unrecoverable have recovered, and this is shown in that programme (it's called 'Edge of Life' and on iPlayer). I don't think Archie has anything like that type of brain function though.

There was also someone kept alive for nearly 10 years in the same coma before they died still not moving or responding in that documentary, so it shows both angles.

There's some doubt about whether this was part of a social media challenge if that's what you're referring to.

I do believe if the matter had been handled better in the early stages it would not have come to this.
As I said earlier, I spent my working life as a local government officer; I could give advice to a customer that was 100% correct ,but if a friend of the customer gave opposing advice then that would sometimes be believed and that often resulted in arguments and bad behaviour from the customer. There are some people who will just latch on to a totally ludicrous statement if it confirms what they wish to happen, and that is, IMHO, what is happening here.
Instead of listening to qualified medical practitioners and asking questions so that a greater understanding is reached, Ms Dance is choosing to believe the word of people with no actual medical knowledge who, quite probably, have a different agenda. In addition, some people think if they just shout for long enough they will get their own way, even when it is not physically possible.
There is never going to be an easy why for medical staff to deal with people in distress like this; it would take forever to find out how best to deal with them as individuals , and time is at a premium here.

What is that supposed to mean?

Some people never accept. There was a Louis Theroux documentary about people kept in vegetative states long-term in special facilities. In some cases they had been there for many many years, paid for by the family with no change. It's a very good documentary, not sure which series it is part of but very thought-provoking. I even think that keeping someone alive in a permanent vegetative state is wrong and immoral.

I think we need to move away from this idea that we should preserve life at all costs. Someone in a vegetative state isn’t actually living, they’re just surviving. Nobody should want a loved one to live like that. you have to ask then who exactly you’re doing it for.

The idea that anyone survive for years and years with no abilities, not able to do anything is horrific and shouldn’t be encouraged.

I think we need to accept that while medicine can achieve certain things, doesn’t necessarily mean that it should.

I absolutely wouldn’t want to be kept alive like that, and I would have 0 respect for anyone who denied me of the opportunity to just die. Even if there was a possibility I could wake up from a coma 10 years later and make a recovery. No thanks.

I am totally with you here, there's this God like view of the poor old NHS. I've also been very badly let down with my DC - who almost died as a result & had to live with lifelong health problems as a result of their failure.
It's given me a lifelong distrust of services & care.
I really think people should stop trying to demonise this mother. We don't know her whole story. And I think it's a fairly short time to have someone on ventilation & no wonder Hollie is wanting more time.
It ought to come down to a medical decision but clearly the relationship has broken down so the family aren't going to trust the decisions anyway

I completely agree.

Ms Dance is clearly in the throes of grief and having a very public mental breakdown. It's totally irresponsible to allow her to make wild statements and use inflammatory language and let it go unchallenged. Also publishing images of a child in that state is intrusive and wrong.

The Samaritans have guidelines as to how suicide is reported; I think it's time there were some for children in this situation too.

I think the PP thought you were referring to social media, I think you're referring to the issue of mum videoing what is going on in his hospital room and filming all the medication and equipment?

I wonder if, in time to come, this case and cases like it will be linked with the wider discourse of distrusting professional opinion - eg the Tory pro-Brexit line that 'people in this country have had enough of experts', the denigration of 'red-tape'/regulation (i.e. tried and tested procedure) etc?

Please have some respect folks and stop contributing to the circus.

@OpinionsUnseen the reason it is an interesting documentary as well as the long-term unrecoverable cases, is that they follow end of life care for others, including one man in a coma who drs say won't recover, but in fact he does. As another poster said, it is easy then for the parents to latch onto these type of cases where in fact the medics were essentially wrong early on (or rather were much more sceptical, they didn't actually switch the machines off). Archie's case is different for all types of reasons, but it's very interesting and not clear cut; this particular coma patient did wake up against medical prediction. Others in the same programme did and have not.