Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

The media need to stop giving her interviews now. It's going too far. Completely inappropriate to give air time to some of the things she is saying. I get it that she is in a very bad place and the vast majority of people understand the issues but there will also be a substantial number of people listening to her words and taking it in as factual. It's damaging in a societal sense.

I strongly agree with this. The mainstream press have made incredibly irresponsible editorial decisions in the interests of increasing clicks. If any NHS staff are harmed as a result of those decisions there absolutely should be an enquiry.

I really think people should stop trying to demonise this mother. We don't know her whole story. And I think it's a fairly short time to have someone on ventilation & no wonder Hollie is wanting more time. more time for what? He’s dead. Has been for months. His brain is rotting inside his skull.

Why exactly should he remain ventilated?

Big ethical topics like end of life care need discussion and debate in my view. How do we make progress as a society if we can’t talk about it?

Can’t be the only person 🤮 by the condition of Archie RIP.

‘Necrotic’ isn’t much of a euphemism, is it.

Torn between wanting the truth of his bodily existence to be broadcast so more people will see sense re switching his machine off and gagging at the very thought of how horrified everyone would be if they knew the details of his decomposition.

No matter how this case ends, I think anyone in training for CPR needs to know what happens after it ‘succeeds’.

@Strangeways19 he was declared brain dead pretty much immediately. He's now been on a ventilator, pointlessly, for four months. His brain is necrotic and falling into his spinal column. How much more time do you think he needs to be on a ventilator for?!

The CLC have emotionally manipulated Hollie, a mother who clearly adores her child and has suffered one of the worst traumas a parent can face. I cannot believe they’re allowed to get away with this sort of coercive control. There should be repercussions.

I'm guessing the coroner's report is going to make for grim reading. Will likely be distressing to hospital staff who have been caring for his body all this time.

I really think people should stop trying to demonise this mother. We don't know her whole story. And I think it's a fairly short time to have someone on ventilation & no wonder Hollie is wanting more time.

How much time is enough? How much more money should be wasted?

Absolutely.
I’m not going to demonise Hollie or the family because they’re likely overwhelmed with emotion and distress. However, for those of us who are detached, it’s pretty easy to be objective. The facts are grim but clear.

@Strangeways19 he's been dead and being kept artificially alive on a ventilator since April. Machines are keeping all of his vital organs alive, he's requiring hourly blood tests and blood transfusions just to maintain his body and his stasis, even though he has been declared dead- not just by the NHS doctors in the hospital but by 5 other independent doctors and other legal professionals.

It's affecting staff and resources too
Staff having to care for a deceased body in effect, blood that is likely in short supply being given to someone with no hope of recovery...

Quite. Too much tipping around the reality of his condition. It needs saying so people aren't encouraged to behave like this. I'm astonished that all the legal challenges haven't been exhausted. This is a massive waste of NHS resources having to defend this.

Is this scientifically/physically what happens or just a very blunt way of saying his brain has died?

@EntertainingandFactual it's the scientific term. Read the court docs, it's all in there. There is no blood supply to his brain so it is necrosing and has "coned" into the top of his spinal column. They are the grim facts. He is dead.

I think many do not realised that Archie was declared legally dead weeks ago.

The judgement sets out very clearly how this decision was arrived at. It explains the medical evidence in clear language and also the claims that Archie was gripping his mother's hand, shedding tears, etc.

It's really worth reading
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Archie-Batteresbee-judgment-2-1.pdf

@henryhihat Thank you

I would think it is refferring to the Kiwi thread on Facebook and if it is true it will all come out in the wash afterwards.

And an evangelical Christian 'academic' wrote a paper saying that as his heart was still beating that proves he had a soul independent of the brain ergo never switch any machines off ever or it's murder
There is no reasoning with these people.

Debate by who though? Question Time? In the Commons? Members of the public brought together as a focus group? And how would those changes be decided? I agree in principle but get frustrated with the whole ‘we need to have a sensible discussion about X’ because it just seems like a way of kicking the can down the road, nothing ever comes of it.

I agree she's being manipulated, but in all fairness the relationship between the family and the hospital appears to have broken down before their involvement.

As pp's have already posted, Archie's prognosis was known to be dire within days of him being in hospital.

The family then repeatedly prevented tests being carried out that would prove his brain stem was no longer functional.

By the time the courts were involved and the tests carried out they were too late. Again to quote a pp, he was too dead to be legally be declared dead.

Unlike the CLC the courts did not want to start changing the legal definitions/tests for brain stem death, so have gone down a route of best interests.

So yes, the CLC is certainly a very unhelpful factor here (and the rhetoric of him being disabled, which plays to the request for UN intervention looks right out of their playbook, rather than something Hollie would have come up with alone), but the family have been in "combat" mode well before they came on the scene.

Hollie seems to believe that her rights as a parent are paramount and that's simply untrue. How many news stories have we seen where parents have not only failed to protect their child from harm, but been the vessel to cause it.

Child safeguarding always means putting the child's interests first irrespective of the emotional impact to the family. Whether that means withdrawing treatment or refusing to move him to another facility.

Whatever Hollies motivations are and regardless of wether she believes she is acting in Archie's best interests, the fact remains that she has not been doing so for months.

It's absolutely not normal for anyone with a prognosis like Archie's to remain ventilated for days, never mind months on end.

ICU care is incredibly invasive and as professional as the HCP's are it is not a dignified existence having literally every single bodily function managed. It's however a trade off that's absolutely worth it when there is a prospect of meaningful recovery, but in this case there simply is not and every day Archie spends in that environment represents a great injustice to his personhood and dignity.

I'm beyond appalled that anyone reading that report could do anything other than allow treatment to cease.

Just seen in the news that Hollie is considering the option of moving Archie out of the UK. Where would the money come from? And then even if they were to successfully move him, which would be a logistical nightmare, then what? Eventually the supporters will move on and any financial support she could receive through crowd funding will dry up.

There is an alleged social media challenge to asphyxiate themselves apparently I don't know if there is I've never seen it but there was some mention that he was trying that and that's how the injury occurred

By everyone. Everyone should be allowed an opinion and access to the knowledge, because any one of us is just a car crash away…