Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

[BreadInCaptivity]

Previous thread:

Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

Having looked at the pictures of archie his mother's page she has shown complete disregard for her sons dignity and privacy. It's awful what's happened but that little boy is gone.

Reading with interest.

Feel immense sympathy with Dance. No matter what - she’s a parent losing a child. Unimaginably awful.

But also agree with previous poster who said it’s important that legal processes are in place and that people can challenge doctors. They are not always right.

The prolonging of his life/death in this way doesn’t seem right though. I feel for Archie. He has not had much dignity. He is at the heart of all of this and yet seems lost in the noise.

And that other countries want to take him and have a track record of success in cases like this. Again, if they did, it would have been very big news and we would have heard about it.

And that other countries want to take him and have a track record of success in cases like this. Again, if they did, it would have been very big news and we would have heard about it.

Yes, if somebody had risen from the dead in another country I think it might just have made our front pages.

It's actually scary to read some of the rubbish that people have suggested. These people, they walk among us.

Poor little child. I hope that this will soon be over, for his sake.

I just don't get..
She will have had him as a baby and pregnancy check ups on NHS
Vaccines
Whatever illnesses he's had
Guessing ADHD diagnosis is NHS
The ambulance that she called is NHS who tried to save him

And now she is all saying she was told at the start of lockdown people were coming for their children, and the NHS wants to euthanise him
She relied on/trusted the NHS before and now she just doesn't? So I'm presuming she won't ever use them again, for anything? What went wrong

I totally get that. Obviously I only looked briefly and one of the difficulties was that what they called brain dead 20 years ago is not what they call brain dead now IYSWIM. So your right. It may have just been comas and a persistent vegetative state (but these people were thought of as ‘brain dead’ back in the day).

Do you see where I am going with this. That it doesn’t seem to be as simple as I thought all this was less than 24 hrs ago.

Its just awful. Like a PP I also don’t understand why they are saying limit his distress - because if he is genuinely brain dead he has no distress. Lack of dignity yes and lack of peace in the moral sense of a peaceful passing but not in the actual emotional feeling sense IYSWIM.

And I am troubled by the mother saying he would react when he had his hand held sometimes. I am confused about that because as far as my limited googling went - brain dead means no reflexes whatsoever. So he couldn’t have moved his hand whether intentionally or not. She might have lied to buy more time, or being having a psychotic break with the stress, but what if it’s actually true.

And no I am not arguing in either direction to what should happen here. As I said I don’t really have any knowledge in this area bar last nights wormhole. I am just saying I was troubled by all this quite deeply and also surprised how disputed this whole area seems to be.

I agree with lack of dignity for Archie. Her Facebook is open for all to see, poor child.
Please Hollie, let him go now.

A fundamentalist might see it as the life support being a demonstration of man exercising his free will. There are lots of things that man has created that aren't "natural" - it could be argued that using aeroplanes is denying God's will because He didn't give us the ability to fly. But by giving us the materials and skills to learn how to make machines He is enabling us to do things that are not "natural" therefore it might not be considered against His will.

An alternative view which would also allow a fundamentalist to accept life support would be that humans were put on earth to suffer and hopefully find a way to God during life so that they go to heaven when they die. In this case, if it's suicide (I'm not making a judgment that it definitely is) then the child will be condemned to an eternity of unimaginable torment in Hell at present, therefore anything that may prolong his life give hope that he will eventually recover enough to atone for his actions. No matter how unlikely, a fundamentalist might consider a 0.000000000000000000000001% chance of being saved is better than a 100% chance of Hell when the life support is switched off.

Like any group Christian fundamentalists don't all think as one mind so there may be a multitude of other ways they are able to justify their position.

(I mean some people can justify that it's right that we encourage migrants to cross the Channel in unseaworthy vessels by rescuing them and supporting them, other people can justify that it would be better if they were discouraged from making the journey.)

I've seen the film of him holding her hand im not sure how she could fake that to be honest she literally lifts her hand up and his hand is wrapped tight

I was referring to the smaller firm. I absolutely agree that everybody needs representation, that goes without saying. My problem is the CLC input and I cannot understand why any 'respectable' firm would have anything to do with them. Also that crazy Russian(?) not-a-lawyer who caused so much trouble during the Evans case seems to be working for that smaller firm. It all seems rather questionable to me.

The mother has a well documented history of lying, I don't think anybody is disputing that what people debate is motive.

I was a bit like you, medicine moves on etc.

You have to trust the experts because they studied this stuff but at the same time you would be niave to believe that individual experts may not have motive to be dishonest but there is a lot of consensus here. That's why I disagree that we should change the system as a result of cases like this.

Finally I actually read the rulings then did additional research about the medical conditions. When you do that, when you find out the actual physical things that are happening to that poor child's body that's when common sense kicks in and you understand that the doctors and courts are right.

brain dead means no reflexes whatsoever

No, that's incorrect. Reflexes controlled by the brain are absent, but spinal reflexes may still be present. Even after the heart has stopped beating, bodies can still have little twitches and jerks.

There is a post on one of the other forums where this is being discussed more freely. One post purports to be from a nurse in one of the other famous cases, cant remember which one, but talked about how the father would move the child's dummy into his mouth during fitting and/or prompt a fit by the way he was moving it. This made it look like he was physically sucking on the dummy.

Also that he would poke him in a bit of the spine which meant the arm flexed in a way which made it look like the child was holding their arm up.

I dont know the truth of that or whether that applies in other cases, the body is just muscles and connections which could be manipulated I suppose.

And I am troubled by the mother saying he would react when he had his hand held sometimes. I am confused about that because as far as my limited googling went - brain dead means no reflexes whatsoever. So he couldn’t have moved his hand whether intentionally or not. She might have lied to buy more time, or being having a psychotic break with the stress, but what if it’s actually true.

A newborn baby has primitive reflexes which usually go away as the brain develops. These are what drs test (drop test etc) young babies to find any early problems. Re-emergence of spinal reflexes later in life indicates neurological disease/damage. One is the grasping reflex, which can be elicited by applying sustained pressure onto the palmar aspect of the hand. This results in flexion of the patient’s fingers grasping the object providing the pressure.

I've seen the film of him holding her hand im not sure how she could fake that to be honest she literally lifts her hand up and his hand is wrapped tight

I haven't seen the video but could be a couple of things
tenodesis grasp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenodesis_grasp

his hand has contractures and is stuck in the finger's closed position.

I had hoped in such cases, that with time and perspective, that families would be able to make peace with the decision to withdraw treatment.

However, listening to the interview with Charlie Guard's father, for that family at least that does not appear to be so and he remains very angry.

I can't fathom how CLC and these Army's can't see the long term damage they cause in creating/whipping up the narratives they do that cause such long term pain.

Yes. A 4-year-old boy died from meningitis and was kept on a ventilator for the next 20 years. He 'moved: "Reflex responses of the limbs and trunk to tactile stimuli consisting of nonpurposeful muscular movements were noted, along with occasional apparently spontaneous limb movements"

When the heart finally gave out, the autopsy showed his brain was a calcified rock with massive holes in it. He had been dead for 20 years. Corpses move. Archie is dead.

hods.org/pdf/Long%20Survival%20Following%20Baterial%20Meningits-Associated%20Brain%20Destruction1.pdf

I actually feel so sorry for the family but what they are doing is beyond selfish. He is gone and they need to let him off his dignity and go. No parent wants to ever believe their child is dead but he is and she needs the help to accept it Rather then blaming everyone. No one is at fault. It’s a sad thing that’s happened but there won’t be a miracle.

Those so called countries that say they will help just want the money. Who will pay for him to be taken to the hospitals In the countries. It will take countless staff and a lot of money that the family I’m guessing don’t have. please let him go and get therapy for the grief.

Christ. It’s disturbing. Poor Archie looks emaciated

Assuming these magical doctors from abroad are real... (and I am not convinced on the evidence so far)...

Are they real doctors doing studies/trials who haven't had all the information and have said something like 'we could look into that, let us get all his medical details' and thats then been twisted into 'we can definitely save him if you can fetch him to Italy/Turkey/Japan etc'...

Or are they actually wild charlatans, in some way after someones money?

You hear about these 'a doctor in so and so country says he can save him' offers but I don't know how they come about and how real they are.

Surely, no qualified medic can look at a child who effectively has no brain now, and say 'yes I can save him'?!

I feel incredibly sorry for Hollie, Archie was a beautiful and talented child and it is understandable that she feels she has to exhaust every last possibility.
I deal with people making difficult decisions in my work, but not at this level of importance. I always find that taking as much time to listen at an early stage and to establish a really good relationship with the person is crucial.Hollie is very focused on the medical team's desire to turn off life support after 3 days, that wasn't enough time for her to even begin to comprehend what was happening. NHS can be excellent in terms of treatment but pretty rubbish at the more empathic side of things. I do believe if the matter had been handled better in the early stages it would not have come to this.

Oh god this is just awful. It’s such a horrific topic. I hope everyone involved can find peace.

Hollie is very focused on the medical team's desire to turn off life support after 3 days, that wasn't enough time for her to even begin to comprehend what was happening.

That's not true. Many of us posting have had to make the same decision in that timeframe: for me it was less than a day.

And I don't believe the staff were unempathetic or kind. These are experienced ICU staff who have done this many many times and have never had this result. Did you see the court excerpt above saying Hollie distrusts the medical staff but trusts random stuff she finds on Google? This is not a rational person.

Why do the NHS not withdraw treatment? They have all the court results in their favour and have given plenty of warning.