Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

"Commets about staff being "satanic paedophiles" "

?? Isn't that a QAnon thing? Has that been thrown around here?

Exactly. Trauma is not an indication of a "good person". It doesn't eradicate the previous poor behaviour of a person and- rather crucially- it doesn't mean that they'll be a good person or make good decisions afterwards. If it did, we wouldn't consider it such an inarguably bad thing.

No reputable doctor would have told the parents they could help; they cannot possibly say that without seeing the notes and scans, and talking to his doctors. They would probably need up to date scans too, which we know would in themselves put Archie in danger. They are more likely to have contacted the hospital who would then have asked the family for permission to release his medical information to them.

The question also arises why they have left it four months before volunteering their expertise. It's not as if information about the case has been hard to find in the news media.

Someone has messaged her suggesting that if Archie is frightened, the adrenaline rush will wake him up.

Thats the level of the people involved with her, so who knows where the ideas come from

That’s just nuts

I don't think referring to his "distress" is helpful. She is being told the machines need to be switched of as he is brain dead, if that is true (and I have no reason to question what the doctors are saying) then he can't be distressed. Telling her he is distressed is just confusing her. I don't think mixed messages are helpful.

The full judgement in Lambert v France that I referenced above, if anyone wants to read it. It took nearly a year for the court to publish its decision, which may be what Ms Dance and the CLC are hoping for. However it seems from the medical evidence presented that Archie will not be able to sustain any form of 'life' (even though entirely artificially maintained) for that period of time.

Full text of the judgement in Lambert v France

That's a difficult one. We don't know what the interaction between the solicitors' firm and CLC has been, and although solicitors aren't subject to the cab rank rule it's nevertheless a revered legal principle that they should be prepared to act for even the most unsavoury clients, because anyone is entitled to access to the courts and to have their case put forward to the best of the lawyers' ability. Hence the fact that people like Brady, Hindley, Fred and Rosemary West etc get legal representation.

There seem to have been two firms involved here fairly interchangeably. One, rather oddly, is a firm specialising in criminal defence work, but the other is quite a large and well-known firm with some experience in this field. I would find it very surprising indeed if that firm hadn't been treading very carefully indeed to keep themselves within the professional conduct rules.

I've been here, at the moment you find your child not breathing you try and save them, you start CPR and call ambulance . The paramedics try to save them because at this moment it doesn't seem possible they could be dead.
Then there heart starts to beat again but they don't move, they can't move or wriggle or do anything. In my sons case he was put in ICU next to another very poorly child who was ventilated. But this child moved, and wriggled and blinked and was obviously alive but in a deep sleep. My son was motionless, the ventilator forced his chest up and down and the heart beat the blood but he was a shell, he was a body not a boy.

But back to the quoted point they keep them alive to give them a chance and I am thankful they did that.

Lots of people say posters have no idea, lots of posters do know and have been through it sadly.

Finally regards anonymity (which I agree with, my son would have been horrified and embarrassed if I had shared such intimate pictures with the world) it is possible, but parents choose otherwise.

This is a charade now. There is no dignity here for anybody.

?? Isn't that a QAnon thing? Has that been thrown around here?

Not on here, powershower; it was said on the "Army" FB site, and I quoted it because a PP mentioned the hosts' responsibility to take down such remarks

Sadly - though IMO not surprisingly - it's still there

The family were offered mediation but declined it. It's documented in the high court judgement. They also declined the initial brain stem tests too.

I suppose thats about semantics though, because I cant imagine the strain on the body of keeping it artificially alive?

@SunsetandCupcakes So sorry you went through that.

I wouldn’t ever want to prolong the life of my son if he was dead and wouldn’t recover.

But I did do a bit of Googling on this yesterday and it seems with my limited knowledge that ‘death’ is a disputed term. It used to be if someone stopped breathing we call them dead. Then it was the heart. Now it’s the brain of which we don’t fully understand.

I hate to be so vulgar as to use these words, but from what I gathered the only thing everyone could agree on was that when decay of brain set in then that’s that. Some did argue that brain death in the sense of no signals might not necessarily be beyond repair in the same way our lungs and heart previously were deemed dead when no signalling/functioning. Hence how we now have electric pads to kick start them again.

It was quite a horrific internet hole with lots of sadness but there were some incredible cases of people deemed brain dead waking from comas when advances in medicine were made. Some with excellent recovery’s.

Obviously I am not a doctor and so have no idea and any of this really but perhaps that’s what’s going through this mums poor mind. That he may be one of those miracle cases and that he’s not being given the chance.

It’s changed my view somewhat. I appreciate realistically we can’t keep everyone who ‘dies’ on life support for ever in the chance that a couple might wake in 20 years as medicine advances. Of course that’s no consolation to this family. They will want the whole worlds resources thrown at their son and who wouldn’t if you genuinely thought he could be that miracle.

Very sad. Heartbreaking case.

Agree that the level of brain injury Archie has very likely means he is unable to experience any sensations of pain or distress. Which the longer this is dragged for is a small blessing really.

The toll this must be having on the doctor's and nurses involved must be immense. I find myself wondering what kind of relationship Hollie has with them. Does she speak with them on friendly terms or is it all hostile now?

I am religious and I agree. If God had wanted my son to stay alive he would have taken a breath when the ventilator built by man was removed.

But a very confusing message for his mother. She must see it and think if he's distressed then he's still in there.

Latest interview..same thing..doctors have got it wrong.

@SunsetandCupcakes I'm so sorry you had to go through that. This story wnd thread must be difficult for you .

Unless these were actual medical records I would take these stories with a very large pinch of salt. It’s highly likely these recovered people were never declared brain dead but we’re in a coma. Very different.

The family were offered mediation but declined it. It's documented in the high court judgement. They also declined the initial brain stem tests too.

Yes I read that too.

I think that's the biggest indication of what's happened since and that deflecting blame is just something that would have happened regardless.

She wasn't ready to accept the possibility of brain death from the beginning.

Once she refused mediation and a court ruled against her it just escalated. But that image distrust of the consultants and their motives and inability to engage in the idea of brain stem death was there right from the immediate outset.

@PeloAddict and @itsgettingweird

Thank you for your responses. I haven’t seen any coverage of anything before he was admitted to hospital.

“47. The two issues raised show clearly the lack of trust the family has in the very experienced clinicians caring for Archie. I noted from the nursing notes found in the medical records that Archie’s mother preferred to search for answers on the internet or from people who had contacted her rather than accepting what the specialist doctors treating Archie and who have care of him on a daily basis were saying. I have had no reason to doubt over the last three weeks when I have heard evidence on three occasions from the three main clinicians treating Archie that they want what is best for him.

48. We can all understand on a human level the mother’s desperation, but I did not accept that these experienced doctors were not worthy of her trust.”

The above is from one of court documents from the 13th June. I’m glad the hospital staff have some support from the judges.

Every case requiring decisions such as in this case are heartbreaking and very sad.

Archie is not unique and I have to say that the longer this goes on it appears to me to me to smack of judgment of those who have made the decision with the advice of medics to withdraw life support.

I am sorry I feel like that, but there it is.