To question the jail sentence for the mum who stabbed her 4 year old?

[Liketochat1]

There's such a sad story of a mum who stabbed her 4 year old daughter in the news at the moment.www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9510938/Nurse-who-stabbed-her-four-year-old-to-death-gets-12-years.html.
She looks like such a broken woman. She not only killed her daughter but also tried to kill herself leaving herself with some brain damage and confined to a wheel chair with other physical disabilities. At the time of the attack she was depressed and facing charges for malpractice and had been left by her partner that day.
She has just been sentenced to 12 years in jail. Do you think she should be jailed? I can't help help but feel she's suffered so much already. Am I unreasonable?

That was my question - you said it improved over time, I wanted to know whether that was organic (the ordinary course of the condition) or specifically as a result of treatment. Very good to hear there are now treatments available and psychiatrists are not turning people with PD away.

But improving over time is not the same thing as treatable, which was the criteria used by quite a few psychiatrists to refuse to see people with PD.

There are many different types of personality disorder, as a Psychiatric Nurse I work with people with Borderline PD using something called Mentalization Based Therapy, usually for 2 years so its not s short term therapy. But it has encouraging results. It was developed by Anthony Bateman

animation to be bad and mad re Frothys comment or to be a peodophile and mentally Ill is not a duel diagnosis as being bad or a peodophile are not illnesses.

The term duel diagnosis is most often used to describe a person suffering mental illness and substance abuse, it's also used to describe someone with sen who also suffers mental health problems

Someone with pd can also go through fazes of being well and unwell the same as someone with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. The condition doesn't stay the same all tge time, we can have patients that are well for years and need no intervention then something can trigger a relapse and they become very unwell.

With help and talking therapy many people are able to manage their pd. It's all about learning about their pd and how it affects them as individuals, what can trigger ill health, looking for signs that they are becoming unwell etc and understanding how their personality differed from other people's and why.

It's easier to do this as you get older and mature, that is why people believe it gets better as you age, it's very difficult for a teenager to manage the condition

Moomin - I didn't say mad and bad is a dual diagnosis.

Yes, some form of Mental Illness and Personality Disorder combined would make a duel diagnosis. Sometimes someone with a schizophrenic illness, or say depression may also have some form of personality disorder and that would be a dual diagnosis.

I would imagine that she had many extensive Psychiatric reports done - In order to be detained in a secure unit she would need to convince a psychiatrist and possibly a forensic psychologist that she was suffering from a severe mental illness that was of a 'nature and degree' that warranted secure care for protection of others or for harm to herself.

Given her current physical presentation she is unlikely to pose a risk to either so doesn't need a Hospital order.

I think my post was unclear when I commented on Paedophilia and personality disorder. Many / most paedophiles are simply abusers who pick on the most vulnerable people they can find and are fully aware that of what they are doing and could choose not to but don't. However, I remember watching a programme where they were trialling hormonal treatment for some paedophiles on a voluntary basis. A few of the men who did volunteer appeared to be utterly obsessional about children, to the point where they thought about little else and I just wondered if, in those limited cases, there might be some underlying personality disorder that gave rise to this obsession. Note - this is pure speculation and diagnosis by TV (always a sound basis )

Another one in the news this morning, sadly. A dad this time but no details as yet. Beyond awful. The poor mother has been informed, my thoughts are with her.

Chaz - I agree - my opinion on Paedophiles who actually act out their compulsions is that they're on the Anti-Social Personality Disorder spectrum, because of the characteristic lack of empathy, impulsiveness and lack of remorse in their personality.

dual diagnosis is when someone has an smi severe mental illness) along side drug or alcohol addiction. it does not mean the individual has multiple mental health/personality problems.
I doubt this woman has personality disorder (its normally picked up early on in life not at her age). & also its an excuse for ones actions. she done something horrendous and I would be very offended if i.was mentally ill or had a personality disorder and was tarred with the same brush as her.
p.s personality disorders and mental illness are not the same. one is chemical imbalance (mh) the other is developmental (pd)

i think pedophiles may actually have a classification of their own. its a while since I was registered (I am an ex nurse) and I have had two kids so may brain is lacking now days haha

The 2007 amendments to the Mental Health Act 1983 included classification of paedophilia as a 'mental disorder'.

That's really interesting ^

a mental disorder really!! 2007 was the last time I practiced before having my son. I am shocked really as I would have thought it would come under a personality development rather than chemical imbalance which is what mental illness is. hmmm

I think the BSM classes it as a paraphila " is sexual arousal to objects, situations, or individuals that are not part of normative stimulation and that may cause distress or serious problems for the paraphiliac or those associated with them. Paraphilia involves sexual arousal and gratification, involving a sexual behavior that is atypical or extreme."

So If the condition causes distress for the person or it causes interpersonal problems

animation having a diagnosis of two different mental health problems isn't a duel diagnosis. Someone showing symptoms of two different types of mental illness would not usually be diagnoses with both, for example someone suffering schizophrenia with symptoms of bi polar would come under the classification of schizoaffective disorder, or would be on the schizophrenia spectrum. There is also schizotypical personality disorder.

That is correct - Dual Diagnosis only refers to someone with Mental Illness and Substance abuse issues.

Someone with two diagnosis of mental illness we describe as having a 'primary diagnosis' with Secondary diagnosis.

yes that's right and dual diagnosis simply refers to some one who is mentally ill and also has a serious alcohol or drug addiction.
I wonder what the icd 10 classification is because the dsm is an American version and they can vary a bit. Think I am going to do some not so light reading lol, morbid curiosity.

ok just found this on icd 10
: The International Classification of Diseases
(ICD) defines pedophilia as a "disorder of adult personality and behaviour" in which there is a sexual preference for children of prepubertal or early pubertal
age.[6]
so according to this its not a mental illness but a personality one.

I think they've put it in the mh category because it's believed some treatments such as cbt may help them to control their urges.

I haven't worked in mh for a few years now, I occasionally worked with people who had diagnosed mental health problems who were also on the sex offenders register but never someone who was a pedophile with no mh diagnosis

Its quite a touchy subject in Psychiatry- this paper is quite interesting -

bjp.rcpsych.org/content/177/3/196.full.pdf

it make me feel angry really that by making it a mental health issue it sort of excuses it or lessens the offence? Or am I just reading too much into it?
Personally I would be happy with a boat floating in the middle of the sea to be detonated with all th bastards on. I can't abide pedophiles.

I think there's still too much stigma regarding mh and also lack of understanding of mental illness to be sticking pedophilia under the heading of mental health condition. It is after all predominantly a sexual preference regardless of a persons personality traits.

She murdered her daughter. Plenty of people have serious MH issues and don't go about slaughtering their child. Twelve ears is adequate imo.

moomin could not have put it better! It is sexual preference and is like saying gay people are mentally ill, I think not. so what's the difference
Its choice and they must surely know its wrong to want a child?

I can't find were I read it but some of the behaviours and personality traits they believe some pedophiles exhibit are the same as some people that commit rape, yet that is not classified as a mental illness

There is a slippery slope here where any anti-social and/or illegal behaviour could be classed as MH related because it's not 'accepted' / the 'norm'. Is stealing a MH problem? What about illegally downloading music? Where is the line going to be drawn?