How much does University Choice Matter for Legal Career?

[Femusia]

If you work in top law firms (Magic Circle, US firms, and others) in the UK or top barristers chambers or are familiar with the legal profession, to what extent would you say the University you go to matters to secure a training contract or pupillage and to bolster your career?

Apparently, there’s been efforts to introduce university-blind admissions among some firms, but the vast majority of successful students are out of Oxbridge and other Russel Group universities?

How do the other Russel Group universities fare compared to Oxbridge? I suppose the top London universities are highly regarded, but does anyone know how Bristol/Birmingham/Manchester/Leeds are regarded?

One thing I found was that universities like Manchester and Bristol admitted up to 400 students as undergraduates while Oxbridge and UCL admitted up to 250. Is it that big of a deal or not?

Are most of them Oxbridge graduates? Do you know any who are not who even aren’t Russel Group grads?

@ninetofiveeveryday You think it’s ok for junior barristers to bill under £100,000 then? These very bright young people can do way better than that without touching criminal law. Most aren’t that keen because earnings are the lowest and so are the pupillage awards. Most barristers would say avoid criminal. You need good earnings to pay tenancy fees, your own pension, all your travel and rent in London on £100,000 worth of billing! I guess you aren’t in London. The criminal bar is the last resort for most bright barristers. Everyone else, bar none, earns more.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one!

My daughter would see this as great news...not so much competition 😂

I'm sure criminal barristers at chambers like Three Raymond Buildings or Matrix earn much more than that.

I think it depends on the chambers. Some are more "old school" about universities than others, but it certainly helps to have gone to a top uni - regardless of what you studied there.

Studying something completely unrelated like Music or Classics at Oxbridge is much more likely to help with job prospects in law than studying Law at some unknown ex-poly.

But why though? I’ve never understood this? Not everyone blossoms academically at the same time. Some people may have got offers from Oxbridge and turned them down. And Oxbridge itself is supposedly holistic when to assesses applications so getting the best grades don’t always get you in so surely law firms should act the same.

In fairness, I was talking about barristers' chambers, many of which are still a lot more traditional/old-fashioned in their recruitment policies than law firms. It's definitely possible to get a job at a law firm without having gone to Oxbridge or top RG, but it's definitely easier if you had.

Just to add another perspective, my husband is a barrister in the North West, mainly doing crime. I won't be too specific as it's a bit outing, but he earned around £170k last tax year. He's not particularly senior established yet either.He left college with no A-levels and went to a non-Russell Group uni, so he certainly didn't follow the stereotypical route people often assume is necessary.We're very comfortable and doing absolutely fine.

edit - spelling mistake - it’s late 😆

Yes, I agree with this.

From my perspective this is good to hear.

One of chambers DD did mini pupillage with is in the NW and it was that one that made her consider crime as she said the circuit up there was really friendly and supportive.

Ironically it also offers the best pupillage year 'salary' and would be a cheaper cost of living.

My husband received a very good pupillage award too - made all the difference. By the time he completed pupillage, he was already earning a lot more than the award itself. All of his colleagues have been incredibly supportive. I've met many of them and they're genuinely lovely, down-to-earth people.

The camaraderie at chambers, and at the Bar generally, is one of the things he values most. It's a demanding job and he does usually do a bit of work from home in the evenings, often an hour or so.

Occasionally he'll have a very late night, but he genuinely loves what he does and it pays very well. If a case "cracks" and a client decides to plead guilty, he can end up being paid for work that never actually has to be done so it can swing in round abouts. Obviously it balances out with all the cases that require huge amounts of preparation!

We're in the North West, so our cost of living is considerably lower than it would be in London, although city centre living is becoming increasingly expensive.

He had a successful career beforehand and then returned to university as a mature student. I think his previous work experience helped him stand out during interviews and when applying for pupillage.

I suspect by Mumsnet standards £170k will sound poverty-stricken 😂, but for a lad who grew up on a council estate, he's absolutely delighted with it.

We're very aware of how fortunate we are and never imagined we'd be in this position. People often assume there's only one route into the profession, but that definitely hasn't been our experience.

My husband received a very good pupillage award too - made all the difference. By the time he completed pupillage, he was already earning a lot more than the award itself. All of his colleagues have been incredibly supportive. I've met many of them and they're genuinely lovely, down-to-earth people.

The camaraderie at chambers, and at the Bar generally, is one of the things he values most. It's a demanding job and he does usually do a bit of work from home in the evenings, often an hour or so.

Occasionally he'll have a very late night, but he genuinely loves what he does and it pays very well. If a case "cracks" and a client decides to plead guilty, he can end up being paid for work that never actually has to be done so it can swing in round abouts. Obviously it balances out with all the cases that require huge amounts of preparation!

We're in the North West, so our cost of living is considerably lower than it would be in London, although city centre living is becoming increasingly expensive.

He had a successful career beforehand and then returned to university as a mature student. I think his previous work experience helped him stand out during interviews and when applying for pupillage.

I suspect by Mumsnet standards £170k will sound poverty-stricken 😂, but for a lad who grew up on a council estate, he's absolutely delighted with it.

We're very aware of how fortunate we are and never imagined we'd be in this position. People often assume there's only one route into the profession, but that definitely hasn't been our experience.

@Femusia A young relative of mine recently got a training contract with a prestigious US law firm. She got a first class STEM degree from Bristol. The firm was specifically looking for STEM graduates.

@XelaM I don’t think the poster was talking about them though! They are top sets where I’d guess no one bills £100,000! There’s a big difference at the bar between “earnings” and your actual take home money in your bank account.

Matrix is £65,000 pupilage award and 3R is £30,000 plus £25,000 guaranteed 2nd six earnings. So if you are having to pay BPTC fees of £19,000 and don’t have a decent major scholarship, the money doesn’t get you that far in London. I very much doubt any crime set in NW matches Matrix for pupillage award. Plus what about scholarships? Barristers need these to offset the BPTC fees. It’s also not unusual to take a dip in earnings after you are a cheap pupil! Paying your own costs on a legal aid case leaves barristers out of pocket.

Lincoln Chambers which is pretty decent in the NW offers £15,000 in the first six and guaranteed earnings of £25,000 in the second six. So their barristers dip into their own income by a stonking £15,000. You don’t get huge pupillage awards outside of London.

My chambers (Band 1 in most of our key areas) does university-blind (and name- and sex-blind) applications now, and I know quite a lot of others at our level do too.
It's still a good idea to go to a good university because it's likely to give you the best exercise for your brain, but it's not, in many cases, better to go to a certain uni just so you can say you went there.

As a solicitor, i instructed a kc at matrix and based on what she charged, she's making a hundred grand a week😂

The NW based chambers with which my DD did her mini offers £55k for pupillage year.

No-one is suggesting becoming a barrister is an easy ride, but not everyone wants to be on the same pathway in law and thank God for that or those who need legal support who aren't millionaire high flying business people would be stuffed!

How did your husband receive the pupillage?

There's only one way to receive pupillage. Apply and then get an offer.
The award is the pay for the year of training.

Yes - this!! Although my father in law trained as a solicitor straight from school at a little family firm and ended up as a partner in a Magic Circle firm. Different era though. My daughter has a training contract with a good but provincial law firm and is about to start the conversion course. She went to a big midlands uni, Russell Group though. She did not apply to the Magic Circle firms for training contracts though as heard on the grapevine that their trainees have a pretty tough time with ridiculous hours (we did make her watch The Firm) she applied to firms that had a good reputation for work life balance - and only 4 of them as said the applications took for ages and the process was like 6 stages including a work experience / vacation scheme week (held in term times though!).

Yeah I worked for an Insolvency Practitioner in London for a while and I was staggered at how many Barristers were going bankrupt. Clearly academically outstanding but hopeless at being self employed and managing money and saving the for the tax bill. It was very sad working there although once the bankrupties were finalised they did feel relieved not to have to worry about it any more. But did have to start all over again with career.