How much does University Choice Matter for Legal Career?

[Femusia]

If you work in top law firms (Magic Circle, US firms, and others) in the UK or top barristers chambers or are familiar with the legal profession, to what extent would you say the University you go to matters to secure a training contract or pupillage and to bolster your career?

Apparently, there’s been efforts to introduce university-blind admissions among some firms, but the vast majority of successful students are out of Oxbridge and other Russel Group universities?

How do the other Russel Group universities fare compared to Oxbridge? I suppose the top London universities are highly regarded, but does anyone know how Bristol/Birmingham/Manchester/Leeds are regarded?

One thing I found was that universities like Manchester and Bristol admitted up to 400 students as undergraduates while Oxbridge and UCL admitted up to 250. Is it that big of a deal or not?

My own mother did her very best (quite successfully) to steer me away from
what I was passionate about and I'm still feeling the effects of that at 51.

My daughter is an intelligent, resourceful, passionate, resilient young woman who is capable of doing her own research and making her own decisions, and whilst I will always be there to discuss her options, I will not be trying to steer her in any direction she doesn't wish to go.

She has other interests beyond criminal law - primarily human rights, war/conflict and resolution and hasn't ruled out work in those fields either as a barrister or another role.

She has absolutely zero interest in corporate or financial law and is well aware of the financial implications for her own career when the time comes to make those decisions.

It’s not really the money that’s the issue (although the money is terrible). The bigger issue is what’s happened to legal aid in this country over the last few years. The court service is on its knees.

I do fundamentally agree with you that’s it’s generally better to let someone experience something first hand and I do know criminal barristers who are still at the bar today 20 years post call, but not many. It’s a very hard life that’s probably impossible to imagine when you’re a starry eyed 18 year old.

Human rights is a bit better I guess although always insanely competitive. I suppose at least you’re (usually) on the side of the angels though. That probably makes it more palatable.

I know some who got quite disillusioned with human rights law. Many false claims and sob stories. Agree they’ve got to make their own choices if only to ensure you don’t get the blame in the future!

If she’s amazing at criminal law she could consider the CPS. One of my friends during my law degree was amazing at criminal law just brilliant at it she ended up at the cps.

One thing I have noticed this year (former graduate recruiter at numerous law firms) is that firms that previously had no minimum A Level grades or minimum module grades in degree have added them back in. Law firms are absolutely inundated with applications, even more so because of AI so they have to have some filters in place. Also, there is a clear correlation between academic success at A Level and degree and SQE pass rates. Always go to the best university you can for law.

I know others will disagree but am shocked at firms now reintroducing minimum academic requirements for the first time in years.

It matters a lot.

You are expected to bring in a lot of business if hired by a major firm, and therefore the people you know or may know, from school or from university, are very important to your prospects.

Human rights is a bit better I guess although always insanely competitive. I suppose at least you’re (usually) on the side of the angels though. That probably makes it more palatable.

Really? 😬 I wouldn't call all those oligarchs ,who embezzled billions in their countries and fled to the most expensive parts of London claiming asylum and very loudly speaking out against human rights violations to avoid extradition, angels 😂

Large firms don't expect you to bring in business until you're made partner. Smaller firms very much do and it's usually the worst part of the job

My son is a corporate lawyer in a City of London firm and this has not been his experience. In fact, the whole recruitment process is often purposefully designed not to favour old-school connection type factors.

And his university was a solid but not stellar RG.

It may be different in the US!

@WyrdHag She’s like a lot of young people. A bit starry eyed and a do-good mentality. Obviously is dead against business and finance but has not considered other options (that you know about) and probably should. Human rights is very over subscribed and criminal doing legal aid work is criminal pay. Great if you have deep pickets because you will need them. CPS would have bored my DD rigid. You don’t advocate and you don’t get into a court. It’s just a civil service job with a salary and a pension. Actually going to court for clients means much more if you really want to be a barrister.

Nor does St Andrew’s!

I was a criminal lawyer for 20 years. Yes legal aid doesn’t pay that well but it’s a rewarding and interesting career and there are options. I now sit on tribunals and earn well.
I did work for both defence and the cps, both have their benefits. I wouldn’t put your daughter off if that’s what she wants to do.

This is not true. Many advocates at the cps are just that, advocates who go to court every day!
I’ve only ever done legal aid work for defence / cps and whilst it’s not like private work, it’s paid better than for example teaching and nursing. It’s interesting and rewarding. It’s also hard work but I wouldn’t say it’s a terrible idea and it’s certainly not boring!

I don’t know where you have this idea criminal law is a terrible quality of life. Before moving across to sit on tribunals I was on a six figure salary. I worked full time and yes it’s hard work, dealing with really troubled, often dangerous people. But the work is so interesting and worthwhile.

Thank you. I appreciate that. It's not always about earning megabucks although of course income has to be considered. I've pretty much always worked in the public sector so high corporate salaries have never really been on the radar in our world!

I have no intention of putting her off if that's her choice.

She's got her Masters and Bar course to get through first anyway and she's doing a great job of figuring it all out without my input.

She's been fortunate to take part in some research projects with a large international organisation as well as doing mini pupillages in crime and public law and a lot of work in the third sector (both paid and voluntary). She is also interested in the political and legislative side of law so she's considering a few options.

I'm probably a bit biased but I'm sure she'll be great whatever she chooses!

@ninetofiveeveryday Barristers are self employed and don’t have a salary in a conventional sense. It’s the young criminal barristers who have been on strike and many get nowhere near £100,000 gross earrings. Chambers will take 17-20% of that too. Then you pay your own travel and overnight costs and you also pay your own pension payments which needs to be at a much greater % than the civil service % as there are no employer contributions. The criminal bar is not a happy place for young barristers right now.

In the US you don't make partner unless you bring in business.

You also need to bill 3500 hours a year from your first year on. Billed hours does not equal hours worked.There is a high attrition rate among new associates (the first rung on the ladder).

I include the info on the US legal field because the OP mentioned American firms (presumably those with branches in London).

3500 billable hours? I work at a well known US law firm in London and our associates have a minimum of 1900 billable hours per year. Many of them might be recording 2000-2200 but not much over that; there are also non billable hours (admin, training, BD, etc). 3500 billable hours? I think they'd be dead.

I think it’s well known in London that American law firms want more than their pound of flesh. DD has a couple of friends who work for them and they surface for air occasionally. Depends what you want in life.

Perhaps look outside the magic circle. You can still earn good money and have an excellent work life balance.

I think it also depends on the team you work in. Some are more demanding than others, but in my experience work/life balance and pay were great at firms like HSF Kramer and Hogan Lovells for example. Just outside the MC.

Those firms pay around £5000 a year less for NQ staff. Hogan Lovell Cadwalader take on around 45 grads. Getting a traineeship with these firms is still hugely competitive. They don’t pay £145,000 NQ salary for no reason either!

They’re expected to bill based on working 10 hour days, 7 days a week, with only 2 days annual leave? I don’t believe that sorry.

Fair point! I was trying to cling to something that was good about being a legal aid lawyer or a human rights lawyer 😆

I disagree with you. I have been a part of chambers for many years I know how it works and where I am based, there was very little support for the strikes of the junior bar. They earn under £100k and so they should, as junior members. However the potential is there to earn far more and most of us do go on to do so.
In addition, you are self employed as many people are. There’s no employee contributions but there are many tax reliefs to being self employed, it’s swings and roundabouts. I’ve not been in practice for 18 months now but I would be surprised if it has changed as drastically as you suggest.