I always said I didn't want a gifted child!

[mnistooaddictive]

As a teacher I have seen how hard life is for gifted children and how they often struggle to fit in. Having done research into asd and ADHD I came across a definition of a gifted child and it is like they were describing my dd. Even down to the love of physically demanding sports such as rock climbing!
I knew she was 'bright' but I guess she is a bit more! Struggling really as I can't talk about it really as if you mention your child is gifted people think you are arrogant and superior. It is a special need like any other but you don't get the support from others you would if you told them your child had ADHD.

She is just 5 and in reception.
Any advice? Do I get a formal diagnosis? She has the compulsive movement thing I have seen described as common of gifted children. Will she need help with this?
I would love to hear other people's stories and the pitfalls to avoid.
I really really don't want to push her. She will learn in her own time when she is ready.

Formal diagnosis?
I think your last sentence is all that needs to be done at this stage. She will learn in her own time when she is ready.

Apologies for poor choice of words. What I mean is to get the school to recognise it and place her on sen register. At the moment her inability to be still doesn't matter, but as she gets older and is expected to sit still and listen she will really struggle.

???? I didn't think an inability to sit still was a required element for a "diagnosis" of giftedness???? Or "compulsive movement." Aren't they co-morbidities? You could just as easily have those difficulties if you had OCD, ADHD, or aspergers. Or you could find they are isolated difficulties. I don't think they increase your chances of being found to be gifted????

It is Clearly not the only factor.
She has the others too such as working well above her age, questioning everything etc but it you read the stuff on gifted children it talks about overexcitabilities which can be expressed in a sensory way, emotional way, or a physical movement way which is called psychomotor overexcitability. I am not suggesting my child is gifted because she can't sit still, but this is the one part that concerns me.
Rabbit stew- I would suggest you find out a little bit more before you make comments like that. As I have already stated I have looked at ADHD and asd but the fit isn't there. As I said above, if you suggest your child is gifted you get criticised and knocked down in a way you don't if you suggest other educational needs. Thank you for proving my point.

Dabrowski's Overexcitabilities or Supersensitivities in Gifted Children
"Does your child complain about the seams in his socks? Put her hands over her ears when the movie starts in the movie theater? Have trouble sitting still? Get moved almost to tears by a piece of music or work of art? These are signs of the kinds of intensities that can be seen in gifted children.

Polish psychologist Kazimierz Dabrowski identified five of these intensities, which he called "overexcitabilities" or "supersensitivities": Psychomotor, Sensual, Emotional, Intellectual, and Imaginational. Gifted children tend to have more than one of these intensities, although one is usually dominant."
This is from About.com.gifted children

"As I said above, if you suggest your child is gifted you get criticised and knocked down in a way you don't if you suggest other educational needs."

It is very disappointing. I have been on other forums for various things and found wonderful non-judgmental support and advice.

Ds1 has a working dx of ADHD alongside his gifted label.

I'm not entirely convinced, but the medication trial is making him more compliant in school (focus wise - he doesn't have behaviour issues) so they are v keen.

He also has some asd traits, anxieties and phobias. And rock climbs. And gave up dance because a nasty bunch of 7yo girls bullied him for a year saying he shouldn't be in a girl's activity.

What have dd's school said about her academics? Tbh, not much gifted identification is possible in yr 1/ r because the curriculum doesn't allow teachers to test beyond the expected levels, so unless you push it, they are hardly ever likely to even know what a child's capabilities are.

That said, at 5 it doesn't matter a jot. If dd is happy and enjoying school, it's all good. Plenty of time to slowly consider whether her problems with sitting still are a result of immaturity, ADHD, or as an over excitability codependent on giftedness.

Don't start seeing problems where there aren't any btw. I find it really sad that at 5 you have already decided that she is going to get in trouble later because she won't be able to sit still. She has a lot of growing and developing to do, and it's also perfectly normal for gifted kids to be able to sit still.

Is she happy and fidgety? If so, at 5, all good.

Her academics "i've never met a child like her" "she amazes me every day" "her reading is astrounding but she is just as good across the board" a few comments from her teacher. She is in a mixed year r/1 class and is at the top of it i.e. outperforming the children in the year above.

I try not to see problems, but it is hard. I doubt she will get into trouble but this is a child you is never still. Car journeys are a nightmare!

It's also perfectly normal fo non gifted children not to be able to sit still. And for gifted and non gifts children to hqvother social needs which man th can't sit still. I don' think it's q good idea necessarily for you to link the two together. Obviously you'll have to work on th sitting still thing q bit- what do h teachers say about it?

First of all move her to a school where chidlren are selected academically at 5. My children went to those schools and they are much better for bright chidlren because everyone in the school if bright. You might get 6 - 8 applicants a place and only the brightest get in. Try schools like say North London Collegiate or girls' equivalents to Westminster Under School etc. Do not keep her in a state primary or you will waste her.

I know a mother-daughter pair who are (imho) high functioning (gifted) ADHD. They are pretty remarkable, but exhausting to be around for long. Neither is super achieving across the board, just in certain areas. Also, their abilities fluctuate sharply; excellent compared to peers, at times, and then ordinary for a long spell.

I think you need to focus on the ADHD traits, OP, and how that could limit her potential (whatever that is) in other areas. It's something she'll need to learn to manage, too.

Xenia: do you think that all "bright" children are wasted in state schools?

Shut up, Xenia.

Im sorry, I dont think 'gifted' is SEN. I have a daughter with severe SEN and a 'gifted' daughter. There's no comparision. Eldest was reading at adult level at aged 5, maths the same etc etc (this was a state school too). She is now getting firsts at Cambridge. Yeah, she was tiring, busy, curious, didnt sleep much but she didnt have SEN.
I bought her lots of books. And state school is just fine.

right, but those comments are pretty typical for kids at the top of the class tbh. . it's hard to know where on the scale they are when they are so little. few schools will test at that age unless there is an underlying problem like adhd or asd (so you might be able to swing some testing if you focus on the issues that could be sn in a more traditional context, like the hyperactivity. tbh if it isn't a problem for the other students then they are unlikely to refer for testing at this point though.)

you could fork out for some testing. we paid £650 with dd2 but thst was ages ago, and have just forked out quite a bit more for ds1 so that he didn't have to sit and wait for the school's ep waiting list. school did dd1's eventually. if you are going to do that at 5 though, you need to have a reason for it other than interest, imho. so looking to move schools, or looking to offocially test for and either rule out or diagnose adhd., as well as getting a definitive on where she sits with the wechsler etc. 5 is a bit tricksy, as the test you need officially doesn't start until 6 - the younger tests won't be hard enough, probably. our psych was fine and just didn't bother with the younger test battery, but it's worth checking what they will use.

we can't afford private school, so all of mine are in state. it's fine. i would put them in private if i had the cash, but i don't, so it's a null point. ds1 is the tricky one,because of the adhd issues. the girls are actually both 'more' gifted than he is on paper, but are absolutely fine in state school. he's a square peg in a round hole. it isn't the 'gifted' stuff that's an issue - that is easily enough solved, but it's the focus and zoning out. we might home ed ds. we might not. he's working on some stuff with a psych at the mo and we'll probably think about it again at easter.

car journeys are way easier if they have an ipod touch. trust me. there are some ace things about hyperfocus.

kal, dd2 is sen and gifted (she has cp). in theory, so is ds1, with the adhd. i've only got one nt gifted kid. all sen means in this context is they require differentiation of the curriculum. it's just semantics. it's a pita keeping track of different ieps at opposite ends of the spectrum for the same kid, though...

as a complete aside - with conners etc, how would the results differ between a gifted child with adhd and a gifted child exhibiting 'overexcitabilities'?? would the test results look the same? is there a difference in terms of expected profile from the other testing etc as well?

books.google.co.uk/books/about/Misdiagnosis_And_Dual_Diagnoses_Of_Gifte.html?id=NQrtt-peg5AC&redir_esc=y

Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Kids. If you click on the book, several pages are actually available for you to read.

The book was recommended to me by a lady from the NAGC.

oh lor. someone recommended that to me ages ago, and i completely forgot.

thanks.

I think one of the worst things a parents can do is to trouble trouble before it troubles you. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I have two children. One is gifted and has never displayed any signs of ADHD/overexcitability. The other is struggling to keep up with the average, but ticks a fair few boxes for over-excitability. I can't have him diagnosed as gifted just because of his behaviour: there is no way he could keep up with the work that gifted children do. Otoh, one of the most gifted people I know is my younger brother (now a successful academic). And he was probably the most laidback and placid youngster I have ever known. He could have done with harder work at school, but any support for over-excitability would have been totally wasted. Ds otoh could probably do with it- but doesn't need harder work.

So it may well be that your dd will need special support. But make sure when you ask for it that you differentiate between the kind of support she needs for her giftedness (= work at an appropriate level) and the kind of support she might need for ADHD traits. You may find that the school does have support in place for the latter, but that it is not limited to gifted children. Be specific in what you ask for at any one time. If she struggles to sit still, harder work may not be the whole answer. She may require a two-pronged approach.

mnistooaddictive. I made a valid point. You just don't want to listen. So far as I'm aware, there is no such thing as a formally agreed list of traits for a diagnosis of "giftedness". There are personality traits, there are IQ scores, there are sensitivities, but they are not put together into a formally recognised condition, they are just a cluster of symptoms. Similarly with aspergers (which at least is officially recognised as a diagnosis of something), there are a whole host of traits very commonly associated with it: eg a peculiar gait, hypotonia, sensory sensitivities and motor tics. It is not compulsory for a diagnosis of aspergers for a child to have any of these things, nor is it necessary to diagnose them separately unless they are severe. Even if they are in fact the most noticeable thing about the child, it is irrelevant to whether they get a diagnosis of aspergers or not. If the child has ALL the traits commonly associated with aspergers, but doesn't show strong enough signs of the traits essential for aspergers, then they won't get a diagnosis, even if put together, all their traits cause them big problems. Their traits will merely be noted down, as would the fact that a child's IQ score is in the gifted range.

So, if your dd can't sit still and that causes her problems, you will get NOWHERE telling the school it is because she is gifted. You shouldn't need an IQ score to argue for differentiated work for your dd (and if you do, then it is a sign the school is wrong for your child and unlikely to get much better for her even if you do wave her IQ test results in their face), nor should you need an IQ test to excuse or explain fidgety behaviour in a 5-year old. You would do far better being sensitive to your own child's needs and abilities yourself - how much she responds to pushing, how easily stressed she is, what motivates her, in what situations she concentrates well. Every child is different, you will not get all the answers by seeking a diagnosis that isn't recognised, it will just get people looking at some of your dd's traits that could be diagnosed as something, to see if she fits the criteria for formally recognised, serious conditions. And you wouldn't really want that if she doesn't have ADHD, would you?

Can I just say that all the SEn training I have had has pointed out that 'giftedness' is SEN. Many many gifted people fail at school beacuse of their questioning and analytical approach.

rabbitstew, I am happy to listen, but not to people who just tell me I am wrong as you did. We could argue for weeks because you don't know her and I am pretty sure. I am not happy about this believe me. I am not going to tell the school anything anymore than I tried to tell them my concerns about ASD. I just want to help her and need to know which path to look into.

Thanks to all the people who have given advice. I have that book niceweather. I actually read it in tears as it described her competely and I had a massive moment of recognition.

I will pay for testing unless it is necessary. I dont want her advanced, but I dont want her to be written off and I know how difficult children like this can be to teach.
I always think forewarned is forearmed, i.e. having now read this I would fight any suggestion of asd or adhd as I know it is wrong. If i hadn't done my own research I would have bee4n happy for this to happen.
The reason I started research is because she is a very angry child at times and I eed to understand her to help her. My attempts so far have failed and I need to keep looking in other places.

SEN is not the same thing as a diagnosis of something. Your original question asked whether you should get a formal diagnosis. My answer was to question whether it is possible to get such a thing. What was wrong with that? Was it too analytical and questioning?