At home, no capacity and no deputyship - access to money

[roundaboutthehillsareshining]

So my elderly relative is being discharged home with a care package. Fine, it's what she wants and it's the least restrictive option, so it's got to happen this way (even if it falls apart in a few months and she ends up back in hospital for 6 months). Anyway, there's nothing physically wrong and no dementia. Her team believe she has a new functional MH condition, but that can't be diagnosed in hospital and she won't engage with community care, so that's a dead end.

However, it's likely she's going to be found to lack capacity to manage her financial affairs. Her bank account set up is hopelessly complicated (at her choice) and can only be administered in branch, which she's not going to be able to access.

So if she's at home, and unable to access money, how does she pay for food etc until the deputyship comes through? The family can't afford to subsidise her, she isn't eligible for benefits as she's got money coming in, she just can't access it. So what happens? Anyone been in this situation before?

Why not contact Social Services or somewhere like Age UK (or the regional version for your area) for advice.

Who’s assessing her capacity?

Can you make her account joint? Speak to the bank they possibly will have a short term work around until you get sorted long term

Assessing capacity is a very nuanced thing and to be done by an expert as capacity can take many forms. My friend is a expert in capacity, lasting powers of attorney etc (a lawyer and a health professional so uniquely dual qualified), so knowing a little through her I would say your first step is to arrange for a professional to assess your relative’s capacity.

If she is assessed as lacking capacity - that’s that. You need a deputyship in order to manage her money.

You can go online (or do it by phone) and become appointee for her benefits. This allows you to do a little - you can use her state pension for her day to day needs, for example. That’s a pretty instant thing. If she’s paying for her own care, she should be eligible for attendance allowance.

You CANNOT use her cards etc., to get her food. Care fees etc. will need to wait - and the care companies will need to wait. They will be used to this and they will try and pressure you into paying, but they won’t.

This is with Social Services - their advice is that LPoA or Deputyship will need to be put in place. But they won't advise on what happens while the Deputyship application is ongoing, and LPoA is not an option.

Her capacity is being assessed by Social Services. This is all above board -she has an independent advocate, we're happy that the process is being followed correctly. From discussions with her advocate and social worker, it's expected that she will be found to be lacking capacity in both personal care and financial affairs (she has already found to lack personal care capacity).

For food, can 'she' set up online supermarket delivery?
I set this up for DM and do the weekly order, but with her card details registered on the account.

Thanks, I understand that - she doesn't have any cards anyway, and can only access money via the bank branch even before this latest situation. I'm not worried about care costs, the council can sort that out with charges on the house, etc.

But she's going home - Tesco's aren't going to deliver food in exchange for payment that may come at some indeterminate point in the future once the CoP have issued an order (which will take months), her electricity company aren't going to continue to provide power without any payments at all, etc.....

The benefits question is more complicated. She vociferously refuses to apply for any state support (and has been opposed to the welfare state for many, many years). She may also not pass the DWP threshold for an appointee - her capacity grossly fluctuates and she is clearly able to articulate her wishes not to receive state benefits.

No, that would be illegal. And also not possible with her banking arrangements....

If there is literally no way of accessing her money without going to the bank in person, someone has to take her to the bank in person and withdraw enough money to keep her going for however long it takes until the deputyship comes through.

Does she not even have a debit card? They are automatically generated with a current account. Do you mean she doesn't have a current account? How does she usually pay bills etc?

There is no threshold for appointee. You phone up, either get accepted there and then or you get sent a form and return it. The DWP sometimes visit but in reality it’s a lot less strict. You can then take control of her state pension.

If not, her family will have to help out or social services will need to step in, get DOLS authorisation and take her into care, if nobody will. Presumably bills etc are on a direct debit - but again, bills if unpaid can and will wait for the issuance of a deputyship order. They don’t like to, but they will.

Set up online food delivery, contact her bank, contact the opg for advice and the court of protection may know if a one off decision can be made to access her money or draw out a lump sum.

How does she normally pay for things? Cash, cheques? Does she even have direct debits for utility bills? What does she say when you ask her how she is going to buy things?

The OPG won’t help without an LPA. The COP may make an emergency order, but the reality is hundreds of thousands of people are in this situation up and down the country and they need to look for other sources of help before a deputyship order is made.

OP - if someone is appointed as her deputy the first step will be applying for state benefits. So the whole “she doesn’t want them” needs to stop.

How does she not have a debit card how did she get her shopping before. Most banks have shut in my area

OP says she has no cards. She’ll be using cash or cheques, I suspect. If she has a current account that issues a debit card, she’ll just have disposed of that. My parents were the same for a long time, but they came round to using a card in the end.

As it was done with her consent I chose to go down this route to make sure she was fed.

In your situation I would tell the hospital she cannot be safely discharged.

Why would she have to apply for state benefits?

As deputy you have to act in the best interests of ‘P’. Therefore, if she is entitled to the state pension, attendance allowance, pension credit - you must apply for them.

I'm not worried about care costs, the council can sort that out with charges on the house,
If your mum doesn't have capacity she will be unable to sign the form for charges on the house. Do you have POA for finance. Someone else with POA will have to sign on her behalf but then they become liable for the payments.

This isn’t true.

The only person liable is the person without capacity and their estate. Should she lack capacity, her attorney or deputy can sign the paperwork on her behalf - but acting as attorney or deputy. This means that they have signed the paperwork as if they were her. Her estate still remains liable for the payments. Should she die without paying, the fees become an estate liability like any other and must be settled before inheritances are paid.

Please don’t spread misinformation.

The DWP do say they will interview the claimant to ascertain if an appointee is required? I presume they need some sort of evidence that the claimant is unable to manage their own claims? And if they interview her in the morning, when she is generally functional and capacitous, they'll find that she is capable of managing her own benefits (which she then won't apply for).

I apologise I obviously read the form wrong then.

The DWP say a lot of things that they don’t do - worst you can do is try. If it then transpires she doesn’t have capacity and a deputy ship is set up, you go back to them with that.

Why have you asked for help when you shoot down all suggestions?

The worst case scenario is she goes home, self neglects and the council has to apply for a DOLS to take her into a care home - a lot more traumatising than you trying to get an appointee sorted!