At home, no capacity and no deputyship - access to money

[roundaboutthehillsareshining]

So my elderly relative is being discharged home with a care package. Fine, it's what she wants and it's the least restrictive option, so it's got to happen this way (even if it falls apart in a few months and she ends up back in hospital for 6 months). Anyway, there's nothing physically wrong and no dementia. Her team believe she has a new functional MH condition, but that can't be diagnosed in hospital and she won't engage with community care, so that's a dead end.

However, it's likely she's going to be found to lack capacity to manage her financial affairs. Her bank account set up is hopelessly complicated (at her choice) and can only be administered in branch, which she's not going to be able to access.

So if she's at home, and unable to access money, how does she pay for food etc until the deputyship comes through? The family can't afford to subsidise her, she isn't eligible for benefits as she's got money coming in, she just can't access it. So what happens? Anyone been in this situation before?

Yes - but payment is delayed until finances are sorted out

It sounds like the only thing you can do is keep reiterating to SS and the hospital that a discharge before access to money is sorted out is unsafe.

For what it is worth we were quoted 9 months. We asked for ours to be an urgent case and it was awarded in 4 months. Others I know have had long waits though so I am not sure there is any rhyme or reason to it. But you may be lucky.

Is that for the LA to be deputies? You can approach local solicitors if the person without capacity has sufficient assets - most larger firms will have a department who will be happy to be deputies. If not, friends and family can do it, they just need to be able to complete reports etc.

There was no food, house was a shit hole, his clothes were all caked in shit.

This is where one of the big gaps is for many older people who stay at home. FIL is at home with carers coming three time a day. But if my SIL wasn’t willing to do his shopping and drop it off, keep up with his laundry and make sure he has clean clothes / sheets, and clean his house, the carers absolutely would not.

if a family member isn’t willing / able to do all the housekeeping, whose job is it?

I would expect the care manager to raise a safeguarding concern. Carers can do laundry, shopping and housework if asked and it's in their contract, it might cost extra so you get reassessed for your needs. Food can be delivered and there are many delivery services.

Interesting. So SIL, if she doesn’t want to do these things any more, should contact SS and they will take over all of it?

I’ve found that “food can be delivered” only works if the person will open the door to people…

… and put it away in the fridge / freezer / cupboard etc.

You can install a keysafe and some companies are happy to use this

I have sadly also discovered that paying £95 to have a police approved keysafe fitted is only of use if you can train an elderly person with dementia to stop putting the latch on their door at night.

( if doing a lot of lifting in that statement)

Social services can use a friendly trust or similar

The person pays for it to be done. Unless it’s in a carers package they’re not expected to take on additional tasks. If the person needs it they pay the care agency to do it. Lots of people have cleaners and shopping calls

This, but people don't sadly often want to hear that. They complain about the nhs and ss for not looking after or sorting things for their family, but won't accept these are paid for services, either by savings, income or benefits.

But if Social Services are the one saying a person is going home, then there has to be a plan for maintaining the house, as well as the person. And this isn't about "sorting things out for the family". The person at the centre of this is clear she wants no involvement from "the family" in her personal affairs. So therefore, we can't intervene legally - there isn't, nor will there ever be an LPoA. It's likely there will be deputyship in the future, and in applying for that (or indeed applying just for appointeeship) the family will be torn apart.

If Social Services are pushing this course of action, then I don't think it's unreasonable for them to provide support in cases like this. Why should "the family" be put in a position where they have to bankroll another household completely, simply because that household did not wish to be supported by other people?

This sounds so difficult OP, sorry you are dealing with it. I dont have much useful to add but I noticed how the relative in question managed to set up all her affairs obtusely enough to only be able to access money herself in person (that takes effort in this era, no cards or online access?) while still functional, is now unable to get to that money but won't allow anyone else to either (sorry if I misunderstood this part), yet is able to suddenly perk up and declare she won't engage with various state bodies trying to help her. It sounds like a very large ego mixed with a huge sense of pride, which is only harming herself in the long run (and you and other family in the shorter term).

In this case can’t you just leave her to it. People have the right to self destruct. Maybe this is the way she wants to go out.

Quite honestly it's a nightmare. This person has been shielded from the mental health services that could have really helped her for her entire life and has spent her whole life being told psychiatrists are evil and have to be avoided at all costs.

There's no diagnosed physical disability (though mobility isn't good), dementia and other neurological dysfunction has been ruled out via CT/MRI. There's a mental illness going on, but it's impossible to get a diagnosis for someone who refuses so completely to engage with MH professionals and who isn't a danger to themselves or others.

It's the lack of insight likely caused by this undiagnosed mental illness which leads to the lack of capacity, which blocks access to finances....

The whole situation is extremely difficult to explain or understand. I'm not sure SS themselves really have a handle on it. I'm sure they're very good with "conventional" dementia and other geriatric illness, but this seems to be outside their experience....

Not if she doesn't have capacity to make that decision. Yes, people with capacity have the right to make bad decisions, but people who don't have capacity don't. She doesn't have capacity to make decisions about her own health and wellbeing.....

Is it truly the case that she doesn't have capacity to make welfare decisions but does have it to make finances decisions, though?
I completely understand or at least can empathise with what you say about multiple mental issues: I am dealing with dementia plus narcissism. Fun fun.

OP I’ve tried to tell you so many times what will happen from here. You don’t seem interested in hearing it and instead insist your only option is to bankroll her.

Oh and also agree 're as only seeming able to cope with "normal" situations.

I have also asked what happens if the washing machine breaks down, the back door needs replacing as not openable currently? No one can deal with those things.

Not really. You've told me I'd need to apply for deputyship - I know this, however there is a 6-8 month delay in the CoP making orders.Someone will need food, heating oil, electricity, water, house insurance, council tax, etc paid in that 6-8 month period....

You've also told me to apply for appointeeship - I know this, I've told you we're investigating, but need to liaise with her advocate and social services as, if the DWP contact her and have a short conversation, they are likely to find her lucid and able to act as a benefit claimant for herself (and, as I explained, if that happens, she will not apply for benefits and noone else will be able to).

I've looked into Attendance Allowance, and am not sure that she's going to be eligible anyway. She's not received care for 6 months, she has no diagnosed condition nor is undergoing tests for any condition. She's not receiving physical personal care, the care visits are more about personal safety. There's nowhere on the AA form that collects data on capacity...

Can I get a brief explainer from anyone who knows as to the assessment for determining lack of capacity and who decides or assesses that? I'm not in the UK so I dont know how that works.
I would have thought a mental health professional would carry that out. If your relative is deemed to have no capacity but conversely does not have any diagnosed psychiatric or neurological deficit, surely thats a contradiction? And leaves her in no mans land, as can't get POA but also can't get a bus.

https://www.nhs.uk/social-care-and-support/making-decisions-for-someone-else/mental-capacity-act/ might help explain it and the assessment process. Also https://www.scie.org.uk/mca/practice/assessing-capacity/, which has some examples.

Capacity is separate from diagnosis. A professional making a capacity assessment may not be (and is usally not) qualified to make a diagnosis, but they are two very separate processes.